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Canadians - 1/2/2022 12:27:35 PM   
Sardaukar


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(Not sure if you can release Canadians that much in stock, but I play DaBabes Lite).

I have started to use Canadians now in Pacific. It started with reforming battalions lost in Hong Kong and now I have released couple of brigades.

In reality that'd have been politically impossible..and probably also militarily (considering manpower shortage of Canadians in Europe).

As Supreme Allied Commander Pacific (SACPAC), I have decided to use my greatly respected Canadians also in Pacific. Time to put that "Zombie Army" into use.

For those who don't know what "zombie army" is, read here...:

https://thediscoverblog.com/2018/10/31/canadas-zombie-army/

https://www.ubcpress.ca/zombie-army

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RE: Canadians - 1/2/2022 1:41:10 PM   
Platoonist


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Yeah, there was a bit of a short-lived mutiny at the little Canadian town of Terrace east of Prince Rupert. Also known as "Zombieville."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrace_mutiny

quote:

Many of the officers of the brigade were in Vancouver when news that conscripts might be deployed overseas reached the soldiers stationed in Terrace. Many soldiers began to disobey orders of those officers present in Terrace. On November 24, 1944, members of the Fusiliers du St-Laurent, who were part of the 15th Brigade, resolved to resist any efforts to deploy them overseas and some men seized weapons. The mutiny spread to other elements of the 15th Brigade as news came in of resistance by conscripts of other units stationed elsewhere in the province.


Frankly, I find the Canadian corvettes and air groups quite handy. I usually evacuate those Canadian troops out of Hong Kong by air that I can, and ship them all the way back to Canada to rebuild. Not necessary but I do it anyway.

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RE: Canadians - 1/2/2022 2:49:46 PM   
castor troy


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I usually have three Canadian Bgds as garrison on Hawaii! I'm sure they like the climate change.

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RE: Canadians - 1/2/2022 2:49:48 PM   
Ian R

 

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The Canadians contributed two wings (inventively named "X" and "Y" Wings) to the AZ DF early on - one of fighters and one of Bollingbrokes. As more USAAF groups became available, they went off to Europe/other duties. They also contributed to the SSF brigade (a mixed US/Canadian unit) which did some time in the Aleutians and ended up in the Mediterranean later on. Eventually RCAF units were a component part of Tiger Force, and additionally, a Canadian division (6th) was being formed for the X Cth Corps for Coronet. Like other X Corps formations, the unit would be re-equipped with US equipment (everything but the uniforms, in its case), and was to be entirely formed from "electors" (i.e. - volunteers). At the conclusion of war the officer/NCO cadre was in the US setting up & being "conversion-trained" by the US Army preparatory to the troops arriving to work up to combat readiness. Interestingly, the Canadian official history records that the rate of "elections" was enough for the sharp end of the division, including a tank regiment, but falling short of the complete slice with all the non-combat services. One suspects Dugout Doug would have seized on any excuse to exclude them, and the rest of X corps, from the operation. He had already rejected an entire Indian Army Corps on racial grounds.

< Message edited by Ian R -- 1/2/2022 2:52:13 PM >


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RE: Canadians - 1/2/2022 4:30:16 PM   
orabera


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

Yeah, there was a bit of a short-lived mutiny at the little Canadian town of Terrace east of Prince Rupert. Also known as "Zombieville."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrace_mutiny

quote:

Many of the officers of the brigade were in Vancouver when news that conscripts might be deployed overseas reached the soldiers stationed in Terrace. Many soldiers began to disobey orders of those officers present in Terrace. On November 24, 1944, members of the Fusiliers du St-Laurent, who were part of the 15th Brigade, resolved to resist any efforts to deploy them overseas and some men seized weapons. The mutiny spread to other elements of the 15th Brigade as news came in of resistance by conscripts of other units stationed elsewhere in the province.


Frankly, I find the Canadian corvettes and air groups quite handy. I usually evacuate those Canadian troops out of Hong Kong by air that I can, and ship them all the way back to Canada to rebuild. Not necessary but I do it anyway.


I used to try and evacuate the Canadians and the MG bn from Hong Kong via cargo ship and send them to Darwin. With the latest changes to my personal scenario I've added a couple of what ifs:

1. What if the HMAS Sydney met the raider Kormoran a few weeks later, like around Dec 7 and it's commander was a bit more cautious and not a blundering idiot.

2. What if the command structure in Hong Kong was slightly less stupid and realized that no two infantry battalions in the world were going to delay the fall, just adding more POW's for the Japanese to work to death. They and the AMC Prince Robert all start in Vancouver. Toss in the RM Rangers and I have a nice little bde to use as Canada's commitment to the war against Japan.



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RE: Canadians - 1/2/2022 4:54:30 PM   
Leandros


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I have used Canadian squadrons to garrison Midway Island and some escorts which have done great service at their destination - the Durch East Indies.

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RE: Canadians - 1/2/2022 7:59:18 PM   
BBfanboy


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I have some issues with the game data that shows the Canadian groups with poor morale. Nothing could be further from the truth - the Canadian troops knew little of what they faced and brought with them the 'pi$$ and vinegar' nonchalance and recklessness of young men spoiling for a fight. Eyewitness accounts of their fight in HK shows they fought well but lacked heavy weapons and training (the only troops available to answer Churchill's request were half-trained units - all the ready ones were in Europe).

The Canadian Brigadier with the contingent was appalled at the lack of preparations the British commander had in place. For example, there was a lookout post high on a hill that would have a good view of any approaching Japanese force and even its preparation for the attack. The British commander decided he wanted all his troops down in the colony, not in outposts.

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RE: Canadians - 1/2/2022 10:00:39 PM   
pontiouspilot


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As I recall there was a Winnipeg VC in Hong Kong. There is a street in Winnipeg with 2-3 VCs if I'm not mistaken??....different conflicts mind you.

Anyone who sends Canadians to the Pacific is a fool....you would never get them off beach!!

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 8
RE: Canadians - 1/2/2022 11:19:35 PM   
orabera


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

As I recall there was a Winnipeg VC in Hong Kong. There is a street in Winnipeg with 2-3 VCs if I'm not mistaken??....different conflicts mind you.

Anyone who sends Canadians to the Pacific is a fool....you would never get them off beach!!



Company Sergeant-Major John Robert Osborn, Winnipeg Grenadiers was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross for actions at Hong Kong.

His citation in the London Gazette reads:

At Hong Kong on the morning of 19th December 1941 a Company of the Winnipeg Grenadiers to which Company Sergeant-Major Osborn belonged became divided during an attack on Mount Butler, a hill rising steeply above sea level. A part of the Company led by Company Sergeant-Major Osborn captured the hill at the point of the bayonet and held it for three hours when, owing to the superior numbers of the enemy and to fire from an unprotected flank, the position became untenable. Company Sergeant-Major Osborn and a small group covered the withdrawal and when their turn came to fall back, Osborn single-handed engaged the enemy while the remainder successfully rejoined the Company. Company Sergeant-Major Osborn had to run the gauntlet of heavy rifle and machine gun fire. With no consideration for his own safety he assisted and directed stragglers to the new Company position exposing himself to heavy enemy fire to cover their retirement. Whenever danger threatened he was there to encourage his men.

During the afternoon the Company was cut off from the Battalion and completely surrounded by the enemy who were able to approach to within grenade throwing distance of the slight depression which the Company was holding. Several enemy grenades were thrown which Company Sergeant-Major Osborn picked up and threw back. The enemy threw a grenade which landed in a position where it was impossible to pick it up and return it in time. Shouting a warning to his comrades this gallant Warrant Officer threw himself on the grenade which exploded killing him instantly. His self-sacrifice undoubtedly saved the lives of many others.

Company Sergeant-Major Osborn was an inspiring example to all throughout the defence which he assisted so magnificently in maintaining against an overwhelming enemy force for over eight and a half hours and in his death he displayed the highest quality of heroism and self-sacrifice.

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RE: Canadians - 1/3/2022 3:48:59 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

As I recall there was a Winnipeg VC in Hong Kong. There is a street in Winnipeg with 2-3 VCs if I'm not mistaken??....different conflicts mind you.

Anyone who sends Canadians to the Pacific is a fool....you would never get them off beach!!

That was Pine Street - renamed Valour Road after three men who lived on that street were awarded the VC for three different battles. WWI of course.

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RE: Canadians - 1/3/2022 9:01:58 AM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

I usually have three Canadian Bgds as garrison on Hawaii! I'm sure they like the climate change.


Depends not everyone likes hot sun weather, me for example. I do not mind rain and a bit cold which sounds like Canadian climate a bit...

I use the Canadians too when I play Allies, they are among the troops taking the Kuriles islands for example in 10/1942 right now.

I also found a CDN mountain ranger unit which the AI used in the Rabaul area (restricted for humans) :)

I found an interesting bit of history 2 days ago re. the Canadian declaration of war against the Japanese. They declared war before the PH attack and also without the parlament Edit, and I wonder if the strange deployment of Canadians to HK was part of this, too...were there not also Indians in HK?


I wonder if the zombie apocalypse is still in the cards btw. - maybe this year

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 1/3/2022 10:18:18 AM >

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RE: Canadians - 1/3/2022 10:33:39 AM   
Alpha77

 

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Cool article above, thanks

I noted this pic:



James S. Duncan, President and General Manager of the Massey-Harris Company, urging workers to vote in favour of conscription in the forthcoming national plebiscite, 1942

Seems this guy was not a favorite person for many, note the police / guards in front of him. Also his face seems not to make a friendly impression Also note millitary looking guys sitting the opposite direction from the speaker apparently watching the crowd...were they afraid someone throws foul eggs at Duncan?

I also find this interesting:

By early 1943, men who refused to fight overseas were being ridiculed as “zombies” by GS men, women in uniform and the public at large. It is not clear when the insult was first used to depict these men as cowardly, passive and unable to think for themselves. The image was reinforced by English-Canadian newspapers and magazines, which reported on how zombies were the target of jokes and were linked to supposedly subversive elements in Canadian society, and how women refused to date zombies. A photograph in the Toronto Star in January 1943, showing a group of shipyard workers who had painted zombie faces on their welding masks, suggests that some men were proud of their decision not to fight and embraced the supposedly degrading term (“Shots behind scenes in Canada’s war factories,” Toronto Star [January 13, 1943], p. 17).


Which reminds on this:


"The use of women and children as messengers for shame and emasculation, however, is nothing new.

During World War I, the “White Feather Movement” swept across the UK, harassing and shaming men to enlist in the army. This “White Feather Brigade” began as 30 women who distributed white feathers—well-known symbols of cowardice at that time—to men in civilian clothing as a means of making their non-service more noticeable among the public.

Children were also instruments of WWI recruitment propaganda in the UK. As history professor David Welch notes, “British recruitment posters changed in tone, from appealing to an individual’s honour to ‘mobilisation by shame’. Savile Lumley’s famous poster of 1915 depicted two young children asking their father about his military prowess after the war: ‘Daddy, what did YOU do in the Great War?’”

Responding to these kinds of cultural and emotional blackmail, particularly from powerful messengers like women and children, will not be easy. In the short-term, non-governmental actors like parents and female peers are the kinds of credible messengers to speak out and counter this type of manipulation."

Source: https://www.start.umd.edu/news/wwi-isis-using-shame-and-masculinity-recruitment-narratives

This shaming tactic also sadly targeted eg. wounded men or on leave in the UK. There is a story these dumb women giving feathers of shame (cowardice) to a guy in a train... who then stood up and showed his 1 arm left, he lost the other on the battlefield...

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 1/3/2022 2:59:53 PM >

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RE: Canadians - 1/3/2022 2:35:08 PM   
ReadyR

 

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A few additional details...Canadian "Saviour of Ceylon"; transport squadrons in Burma; Infantry Brigade to Aleutians (this was additional to SSF I believe) and all kinds of individuals who joined or served with the RAF.

Here is a post from Veterans Affairs, a Canadian gov't department... https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/history/second-world-war/southeast-asia/asia-and-pacific

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RE: Canadians - 1/3/2022 3:15:56 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: orabera

2. What if the command structure in Hong Kong was slightly less stupid and realized that no two infantry battalions in the world were going to delay the fall, just adding more POW's for the Japanese to work to death.


As suspected above already this was probably a "political" manouvre. Getting more outrage to support the war effort, when Canadian boys were killed there. Perhaps also DOW before the PH attack could be better justified when the boys were present in Malaya and HK both colonies of Britain right? But not of Canada, so in theory not Canadian business at all (and yes I know that the commonwealth existed and in fact it was kind of Canadian business).

But still outrage and sadness to avenge the Canadian losses would have contributed to a more positive outlook re. the war against Japan. Same w/ American losses at PH I guess.

Otherwise these small and untrained (esp. for the terrain there) units would make not much sense, or does it?

Perhaps the same with the Indians, I have not looked into how beloved the British were in India in say the 1930s. But certainly there was some resistance still to their rule and many perhaps wanted independence already in these days. So having the evil Japanese kill Indians might serve to sway some Indian homefront elements more in favour of the British against the Japanese..

I want to add at least the eastern parts of India or better the people there are Asian. The religions of India and Japan also have more in common.

Just an idea, as said I have no data for this

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 1/3/2022 3:34:52 PM >

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RE: Canadians - 1/3/2022 3:17:44 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ReadyR

A few additional details...Canadian "Saviour of Ceylon"; transport squadrons in Burma; Infantry Brigade to Aleutians (this was additional to SSF I believe) and all kinds of individuals who joined or served with the RAF.

Here is a post from Veterans Affairs, a Canadian gov't department... https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/history/second-world-war/southeast-asia/asia-and-pacific

The last VC awarded for WWII was to Lt. Robert Hampton Gray, a Canadian FAA Corsair pilot who attacked a Japanese destroyer moored in port and protected by numerous AA positions all around the bay. He sank the DD after his own plane was damaged and on fire, but lost his life in the ditching. This was on the last day of hostilities or day before that.

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Robert_Hampton_Gray

EDIT to add: I should also mention that the CVEs Puncher and Nabob were Canadian crewed and served in the Pacific. Canada also operated the CVL Magnificent but I can't recall if it was in service in the Pacific before war's end.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 1/3/2022 3:23:52 PM >


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RE: Canadians - 1/3/2022 10:55:15 PM   
orabera


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

As suspected above already this was probably a "political" manouvre. Getting more outrage to support the war effort, when Canadian boys were killed there. Perhaps also DOW before the PH attack could be better justified when the boys were present in Malaya and HK both colonies of Britain right? But not of Canada, so in theory not Canadian business at all (and yes I know that the commonwealth existed and in fact it was kind of Canadian business).

But still outrage and sadness to avenge the Canadian losses would have contributed to a more positive outlook re. the war against Japan. Same w/ American losses at PH I guess.

Otherwise these small and untrained (esp. for the terrain there) units would make not much sense, or does it?



The original British plan for the defense of Hong Kong was just a token delaying action while all the important facilities were destroyed before it fell. There had been a plan floated early to completely withdraw all troops and just let Japan occupy Hong Kong if war with them should start. This idea was shot down since it was important to show the Chinese that the British were committed to Hong Kong and limit/prevent any post war problems with China over the British reoccupying it.

The idea that Hong Kong could actually hold out was a Canadian one. The former GOC (General Officer Commanding, roughly equivalent to the CINC of a major US command) of the British China command just happen to be a Canadian General and he suggested the Chief of the Canadian General Staff (an old classmate) that the addition of a couple infantry battalions to the Hong Kong garrison would make possible the long term defense of Hong Kong should a war start. Supposedly even Churchill thought this was a bad idea and had to be convinced. If they had deeper thoughts of dead Canadian soldiers encouraging Canadians in general these were not recorded.

I've been doing a little reading lately and India is very complicated. The British were hated and they were serious mismanaging India, there was a very strong Indian movement behind driving them out. Britain was able to shut down this movement for a while by basically arresting every important leader and locking them up for the duration of the war and making vague promises of Indian independence after the war. The very likely tens of thousands of Indian civilians who died during the very humiliating retreat from Burma didn't help matters.

Chandra Bose was a member of the Free India movement who escaped and went to Germany seeking help freeing India. When the war with Japan started he associated with the Japanese. Around 75,000 of the 139,000 troops captured at Singapore were Indian, 40,000 of these volunteered to join Chandra Bose's Indian National Army and fought with the Japanese in Burma.

In the game it should be possible to build up forces and attempt some sort of offensive back into Burma by 1943. In real life this failed, the moral of Indian troops remained low and the British were suffering major problems keeping the peace in parts of India and to complicate things even more there was a famine in Bengal in 1943 and estimates run from 2.1 to 3 million dead. The British did nothing until it too late, Churchill refused to release the shipping necessary to ship relief. Australia even volunteered to supply all the wheat necessary but they were refused.

The British were forced to spend 1943 into 1944 subduing the disturbances and rebuilding the morale of the Indian Army and begin too late relief efforts in Bengal. Even into 1944 I don't think the British were yet ready for an offensive, the Japanese made it easy for them by attacking at Imphal and Kohima at the end of a very limited supply line and handed the British a major victory and the destruction of the main forces holding Burma.




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RE: Canadians - 1/4/2022 4:47:19 AM   
pontiouspilot


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A corsair or Sea fury? I remember reading this in the Hero section of Imp. War Museum (Main) and I think it says Sea Fury there. It didn't matter much to Mrs. Gray or the IJN destroyer mind you. My recollection is that it was on the last day of war...or really close.

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RE: Canadians - 1/4/2022 5:20:15 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

A corsair or Sea fury? I remember reading this in the Hero section of Imp. War Museum (Main) and I think it says Sea Fury there. It didn't matter much to Mrs. Gray or the IJN destroyer mind you. My recollection is that it was on the last day of war...or really close.

Definitely a corsair ...






Attachment (1)

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 18
RE: Canadians - 1/4/2022 5:32:58 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
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From: Winnipeg, MB
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Here's another rendition:





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 19
RE: Canadians - 1/4/2022 3:12:56 PM   
MateDow


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

I found an interesting bit of history 2 days ago re. the Canadian declaration of war against the Japanese. They declared war before the PH attack and also without the parlament


Canada declared war on Japan on the night of 7 December, not before the attack on Pearl Harbor. What rationale would they have had in declaring war before the attack? They did declare war before the US though, and the UK for that matter.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 20
RE: Canadians - 1/4/2022 4:15:18 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MateDow


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

I found an interesting bit of history 2 days ago re. the Canadian declaration of war against the Japanese. They declared war before the PH attack and also without the parlament


Canada declared war on Japan on the night of 7 December, not before the attack on Pearl Harbor. What rationale would they have had in declaring war before the attack? They did declare war before the US though, and the UK for that matter.

If the Japanese attacked Hong Kong that day, that would be enough reason for Canada to declare war - officially allowing the Canadian troops to fight back. (I'm sure they were already!)

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Post #: 21
RE: Canadians - 1/4/2022 4:35:09 PM   
Trugrit


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Five Canadians were killed on the Arizona.

On December 7, 1941, the USS Arizona was bombed and subsequently sank,
killing 1,177 officers and crewmen, including five Canadians

https://www.canada.ca/en/natural-resources-canada/news/2021/12/natural-resources-canada-laboratory-to-help-produce-pearl-harbor-medal-of-freedom.html

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Post #: 22
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