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A TOAW Forum tournament? - 1/4/2022 3:28:05 PM

TheJSFFenix

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Joined: 3/7/2021
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So I know this game is very old and doesn't really have that many players, but even despite that there is still traffic in the forums and in terms of PBEM games, and even in the only lobby you can sometimes find games to play.

So that led me to wonder - maybe some sort of a tournament could be organized for TOAW, with the player facing each other in some agreed upon scenario? Most of the games I'm seeing here are the FITE, but that one's a bit too large and too long for my taste. I suppose something within the limits of 20 - 40 turns would be pefect, 50 or 60 turns would probably be a stretch, but still doable.

Anyway, TOAW really is a pretty unique game in that it features so many different scenarios from different settings. Granted, it might not be doing the best and most detailed job in any specific regard, but it's still doing a decent enough job to be playable, and that's what I really love about it.

So, any chance of that sort of a thing happening?

Post #: 1

RE: A TOAW Forum tournament? - 1/4/2022 3:54:21 PM

Hellen_slith

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I ran a tournament some time ago (a few years ago?) and we used Tobruk 41 I think was the scenario.

There are some posts about it in the forums somewhere. We had about eight players, the tournament lasted about six months as I recall.

IMHO TOAWIV is not well suited to tournament play b/c of the significant time investment needed.

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Post #: 2

RE: A TOAW Forum tournament? - 1/4/2022 5:55:49 PM

rhinobones

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheJSFFenix
So, any chance of that sort of a thing happening?

Quite a few years ago there was a tournament which used community submitted scenarios. Stipulation was that scenarios were limited to 10 turns. Four scenarios were selected, play was quick but still half the players went AWOL after the first round or two. IIRC the scenario Anonymous Heroics (PBEM) was one of the tournament scenarios. There are probably still a few people around who participated.

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Post #: 3

RE: A TOAW Forum tournament? - 1/4/2022 6:25:24 PM

TheJSFFenix

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Joined: 3/7/2021
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

I ran a tournament some time ago (a few years ago?) and we used Tobruk 41 I think was the scenario.

There are some posts about it in the forums somewhere. We had about eight players, the tournament lasted about six months as I recall.

IMHO TOAWIV is not well suited to tournament play b/c of the significant time investment needed.

Well, there could always be a stipulation that the player only has a 24 - 48 hours to submit his turn or otherwise they concede the game, and that could both weed out those that are unsure/cannot commit and reduce the time required to run a scenario.

With the right scenario selected, I'm pretty sure it could happen. But said scenario would have to be competetive (both sides can win), last a reasonable amount of turns (about 50 should be the absolute maximum) and not feature hundreds of units to move each turn, and all those criteria might be a bit hard to meet. Also people might not be liking the setting or the way the scenario plays, which might also be an issue.

So a tough thing, but absolutely doable.

(in reply to Hellen_slith)

Post #: 4

RE: A TOAW Forum tournament? - 1/4/2022 8:02:54 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheJSFFenix

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

I ran a tournament some time ago (a few years ago?) and we used Tobruk 41 I think was the scenario.

There are some posts about it in the forums somewhere. We had about eight players, the tournament lasted about six months as I recall.

IMHO TOAWIV is not well suited to tournament play b/c of the significant time investment needed.

Well, there could always be a stipulation that the player only has a 24 - 48 hours to submit his turn or otherwise they concede the game, and that could both weed out those that are unsure/cannot commit and reduce the time required to run a scenario.

With the right scenario selected, I'm pretty sure it could happen. But said scenario would have to be competetive (both sides can win), last a reasonable amount of turns (about 50 should be the absolute maximum) and not feature hundreds of units to move each turn, and all those criteria might be a bit hard to meet. Also people might not be liking the setting or the way the scenario plays, which might also be an issue.

So a tough thing, but absolutely doable.

The drop out rates for tournaments regardless of the game are high. Ran one on Rugged Defense and Leadeaters back in the day and played in a few and if there were 75% of the people left after the first couple of weeks then things were going great. It was typically downhill from there.

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RE: A TOAW Forum tournament? - 1/5/2022 9:00:47 AM

golden delicious

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Those figures don't surprise me. My experience of playing randoms in TOAW is that people don't like losing- not at all. You can more or less guarantee that if things are going well you're going to stop getting turns back.

Two suggestions:
1) A certain proportion of folks on the internet are simply flakey. I'd suggest having a "warm up" round. You must complete a first PBEM to get a seat at the tournament. That wipes out your real unreliables
2) People don't really think of their opponents as humans- just that Lobster Squirrel thing that keeps frustrating my offensive. It might be off-putting to some people, but I'd suggest having a regular video call in the calendar for the length of the tournament where everyone can chat about what's going on in their match, or whatever they like. I do find seeing a face and hearing a voice helps with work projects- could work with TOAW, too.

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RE: A TOAW Forum tournament? - 1/5/2022 10:04:57 AM

TheJSFFenix

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

Those figures don't surprise me. My experience of playing randoms in TOAW is that people don't like losing- not at all. You can more or less guarantee that if things are going well you're going to stop getting turns back.

Two suggestions:
1) A certain proportion of folks on the internet are simply flakey. I'd suggest having a "warm up" round. You must complete a first PBEM to get a seat at the tournament. That wipes out your real unreliables
2) People don't really think of their opponents as humans- just that Lobster Squirrel thing that keeps frustrating my offensive. It might be off-putting to some people, but I'd suggest having a regular video call in the calendar for the length of the tournament where everyone can chat about what's going on in their match, or whatever they like. I do find seeing a face and hearing a voice helps with work projects- could work with TOAW, too.

The first suggestion is quite nice, I'd say maybe post some kind of an AAR as a proof that you played PBEMs before?

The second I don't really agree with, thus far I haven't seen any instances of poor sport or bad conduct from people who play TOAW, and I did play a few online rounds with complete strangers already. Some sort of a chat room or just regular forum posting would be enough.

(in reply to golden delicious)

Post #: 7

RE: A TOAW Forum tournament? - 1/5/2022 11:03:46 AM

The Land

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Might be worth checking the tournament threads in the Strategic Command forums - two versions of Strategic Command have had successful, multi-year tournaments.

The key thing to their success has been a) saying games are only valid if both players want to include them in the tournament and b) requiring players to post the games they've started in a forum thread.

So there is already a higher level of filter than regular PBEM matchmaking; there is a level of public commitment which makes people stick with the games longer; and there starts to be a sense of community around the tournament.

Not every game ends up completed and not every participant is a perfect sportsman, but you end up with a much better experience than PBEM with someone anonymous.

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RE: A TOAW Forum tournament? - 1/5/2022 11:39:31 AM

golden delicious

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From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

The key thing to their success has been a) saying games are only valid if both players want to include them in the tournament and b) requiring players to post the games they've started in a forum thread.

b) is pretty good. I remember back when I was in a running club, knowing that people were expecting me to show up made sure I showed up.

I'm not sure about a). Is this on the basis of finding a scenario was totally unbalanced after the fact?

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RE: A TOAW Forum tournament? - 1/8/2022 3:26:07 AM

larryfulkerson

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A big part of running a "good" tournament would be the selection of the scenario to play. I'm pretty sure that about 10 turns is the most we're going to get from the typical wargammer because of real life issues, ill health, snowstorms, earthquakes, etc. So it must be one of the smaller scenario's I suppose. Also, there's the problem of finding a scenario that is "balanced" for either side. Either that or best 2 out of 3 games might be a way to mitigate an unbalanced scenario ( ??? ). Also, may I reccommend a dedicated thread just for the tournament; a place to post results of matches, screenshots, etc.

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RE: A TOAW Forum tournament? - 1/8/2022 4:02:24 PM

TheJSFFenix

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Joined: 3/7/2021
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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

A big part of running a "good" tournament would be the selection of the scenario to play. I'm pretty sure that about 10 turns is the most we're going to get from the typical wargammer because of real life issues, ill health, snowstorms, earthquakes, etc. So it must be one of the smaller scenario's I suppose. Also, there's the problem of finding a scenario that is "balanced" for either side. Either that or best 2 out of 3 games might be a way to mitigate an unbalanced scenario ( ??? ). Also, may I reccommend a dedicated thread just for the tournament; a place to post results of matches, screenshots, etc.

I very much agree on having a dedicated thread to post the results, since the results need to be verifiable. I would be probably doing an AAR if I were playing, but I understand writing one is not anyone's cup of tea, so I suppose some other rule would have to be set in place.

As for possible scenarios, that I think are fairly balanced and quick to play:

* Korea 50-51 - The Norm's classic, 27 to 52 turns BUT it's pretty quick to play because there aren't actually that many units to control and only a few strategic decisions that need to be taken rather early on and by the halfway point, rest is just tactics, so it would be fairly quick to exchange turns. Both sides can win here and each side gets opportunities to punish the mistakes so the match is tense till the end and people could feel less compelled to throw in the towel and stop responding.

* The Middle East Israel - Arab scenarios are all pretty short, however I don't know anything about how balanced they might be, as I never had an opportunity to play them.

* Fulda 55 and Fulda 76 both take place on a small map and last for 18 turns but again, no idea on how balanced it is and if NATO doesn't just get steamrolled to the west map edge like in most Cold War scenes.

* Balkans 12 and Balkans 13 last for 11 and 14 turns respectively and they could be a pretty fair fight, but the low proficiency and low variety of units would probably make things pretty clunky and unfun.

* Cambrai 1917 - One of Bob's scenarios, small map, both sides get to go on the offensive and all in just 17 turns. However it is also true to it's WW1 nature and because of that it feels appropriately sluggish.

* Kaiserschlacht 1918 (mini) - Much more mobile than Cambrai, but it has a sudden death chance which might prove a bit problematic, and the Entente doesn't exactly get to go on the counteroffensive.

* Crusader 1941 and Tobruk 1941 run for 17 or 25 turns, but as for how well balanced they are or if they're quick to play, I cannot testify.

* Soviet Union 1941 is 28 turns long and Corps-sized which means that it's not as time consuming as FITE, while the basic version of it is pretty balanced judging by Bob's insights and his AAR. Same could be said for the sister scenario Germany 1945 (although the Race to Berlin variant of the latter seems to be pretty skewed towards the Western Allied side).

* Two Weeks in Normandy is pretty short and fun to play, while also being pretty balanced, with allied advantage not being as overwhelming due to being set in the early stages of invasion and the drive inland.

Of course any of the above scenarios could easily be modified a bit with an editor in regards to adjusting the proficiencies, shock values or unit equipment amounts if we really want to fine-tune it to be competetive, those are just my picks in regards to which of the scenarios I see as having a balanced concept, with both sides being able to get that victory message in the end, or draw if both make the right decisions.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)

Post #: 11