Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue)

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Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/8/2022 1:43:28 PM

Will952

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The Leningrad starting position seems, for the Russians, pretty much doomed from the off in the Case Blue scenario. I cannot see any realistic means to hold out there for more than a few turns before the pocket is crushed. Although the German HQ start position is awkward, it's easily rectified by bringing another one to Narva to boost supply. With no way out for the Russians, it seems like free XP for the Axis (and maybe that's the intention, but I'm assuming it's not especially given the historical trajectory).

A few suggestions which are not necessarily mutually exclusive:

a) Fully upgrade all starting units in the Leningrad pocket to level 2 inf/level 1 AA
b) Create an event each winter where Volkhov and Leningrad remain in Allied hands which grants +X% increase to readiness and morale for the defenders
c) Give them a shock army to allow them to hold out longer and/or mount limited offensive action
d) Put a 2nd entrenchment at the (206,53) position to bolster the existing one at (207,52)

I don't think any/all of these would necessarily prevent Leningrad being crushed by the Axis should they invest the resources to do so, but it might make it a bit less of a foregone conclusion.

Post #: 1

RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/8/2022 11:41:00 PM

Elessar2

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And/or put an additional fort S of Lenigrad (there is one to the SE), maybe even a permanent one.

(in reply to Will952)

Post #: 2

RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/9/2022 7:42:32 AM

Duedman

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As of now it really seems a bit easy. You do not even need extra air support. Just operate Gustav up from Sevastopol and block the harbors with a ship.
Soon, soviets can not reinforce fully anymore and quickly die.

Leningrad should of course be possible but only with sizeable air support (which Axis will miss on other fronts then).

On a sidenote I think operating Gustav should be more expensive. If you read what they had to do to set it up .... mindboggling lol.
Also I think Sevastopol should get some MPP and maybe NM status. Right now there is absolutely NO reason to conquer it. Just use the troops to blitz somewhere else.

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RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/9/2022 3:29:02 PM

BillRunacre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Will952

The Leningrad starting position seems, for the Russians, pretty much doomed from the off in the Case Blue scenario. I cannot see any realistic means to hold out there for more than a few turns before the pocket is crushed. Although the German HQ start position is awkward, it's easily rectified by bringing another one to Narva to boost supply. With no way out for the Russians, it seems like free XP for the Axis (and maybe that's the intention, but I'm assuming it's not especially given the historical trajectory).

A few suggestions which are not necessarily mutually exclusive:

a) Fully upgrade all starting units in the Leningrad pocket to level 2 inf/level 1 AA
b) Create an event each winter where Volkhov and Leningrad remain in Allied hands which grants +X% increase to readiness and morale for the defenders
c) Give them a shock army to allow them to hold out longer and/or mount limited offensive action
d) Put a 2nd entrenchment at the (206,53) position to bolster the existing one at (207,52)

I don't think any/all of these would necessarily prevent Leningrad being crushed by the Axis should they invest the resources to do so, but it might make it a bit less of a foregone conclusion.

Hi

b) is already in the campaign, and during winter turns there should be a message that says:

The Road Of Life Provides Food And Fuel To The Defenders Of Leningrad

I'm happy to look at the other suggestions, though there was a concern when we allowed the USSR to start the campaign with level 2 Infantry Weapons that it was going to swing things too much in favour of the Red Army.

Before I make too many changes I'd therefore be interested in knowing whether this concern was justified or if the campaign remains largely balanced.

Thoughts are welcome!

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Post #: 4

RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/10/2022 2:26:31 AM

El_Condoro

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The campaign seems balanced so far but I agree that Leningrad will fall to the Axis sooner or later - the only question seems to be how quickly. I think giving Russians Level 2 Inf Weapons would be too much, but maybe more defences south of the city would be enough. The city should still be able to be taken but also have that historical, fight 'til we drop, feel about it for the Russians. Perhaps too much to ask for in a game?

I also agree that operating a rail gun is too easy. Special rail lines, bridges, and other logistical things, they were used in two places - Anzio and Sebastapol (that I am aware of) and were set up for local conditions (hiding in the tunnels near Anzio and being brought out to fire intermittently, for example). Allowing them to move whereever there is a rail link seems a bit too easy. Again, I'm not sure if this can be changed in the game or even if it's worth the effort.

(in reply to BillRunacre)

Post #: 5

RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/10/2022 3:11:23 PM

Will952

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

quote:

ORIGINAL: Will952

The Leningrad starting position seems, for the Russians, pretty much doomed from the off in the Case Blue scenario. I cannot see any realistic means to hold out there for more than a few turns before the pocket is crushed. Although the German HQ start position is awkward, it's easily rectified by bringing another one to Narva to boost supply. With no way out for the Russians, it seems like free XP for the Axis (and maybe that's the intention, but I'm assuming it's not especially given the historical trajectory).

A few suggestions which are not necessarily mutually exclusive:

a) Fully upgrade all starting units in the Leningrad pocket to level 2 inf/level 1 AA
b) Create an event each winter where Volkhov and Leningrad remain in Allied hands which grants +X% increase to readiness and morale for the defenders
c) Give them a shock army to allow them to hold out longer and/or mount limited offensive action
d) Put a 2nd entrenchment at the (206,53) position to bolster the existing one at (207,52)

I don't think any/all of these would necessarily prevent Leningrad being crushed by the Axis should they invest the resources to do so, but it might make it a bit less of a foregone conclusion.

Hi

b) is already in the campaign, and during winter turns there should be a message that says:

The Road Of Life Provides Food And Fuel To The Defenders Of Leningrad

I'm happy to look at the other suggestions, though there was a concern when we allowed the USSR to start the campaign with level 2 Infantry Weapons that it was going to swing things too much in favour of the Red Army.

Before I make too many changes I'd therefore be interested in knowing whether this concern was justified or if the campaign remains largely balanced.

Thoughts are welcome!

Cheers Bill!

That does actually ring a bell, apologies for forgetting that - although the reason is, you so rarely see it in action! Once Leningrad is cut off, it's pretty much a lost cause for the Soviets. Having that event is nice, but it needs something else to bolster it so that it actually has practical application.

(in reply to BillRunacre)

Post #: 6

RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/10/2022 3:35:22 PM

The Land

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I'd suggest making Leningrad itself into a Primary Supply hex.

The main problem I think is that Leningrad can be supply-depleted with the rail gun and blockade. This is particularly a problem as it's a secondary supply with a max supply value of 5 which will end up as 3-4 after bombardment...

I'd be tempted to make it a Primary Supply, maybe with supply events to keep it down to a max supply value of 8 rather than 10. That would prevent the 'gamey' attack using supply to prevent units from reinforcing.

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RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/10/2022 4:31:17 PM

Duedman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

I'd suggest making Leningrad itself into a Primary Supply hex.

The main problem I think is that Leningrad can be supply-depleted with the rail gun and blockade. This is particularly a problem as it's a secondary supply with a max supply value of 5 which will end up as 3-4 after bombardment...

I'd be tempted to make it a Primary Supply, maybe with supply events to keep it down to a max supply value of 8 rather than 10. That would prevent the 'gamey' attack using supply to prevent units from reinforcing.

I'm not sure if that would be a good idea. I'd prefer making Sevastopol NM and giving it MPP so Axis actually has a real decision to make whether to operate Railgun up north. Maybe cut 1 soviet mine or something similar to balance MPP.
As of now it is a no brainer once you figured it out and Leningrad becomes indeed trivial.

I was complaining about the recent changes in 1942 Scenario with Infantry2 AND AA1 shifting the balance towards the Allies.
So strengthening Leningrad or anything of the above with no compensation for Axis will kill it imho

< Message edited by Duedman -- 1/10/2022 4:52:09 PM >

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Post #: 8

RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/10/2022 4:46:58 PM

The Land

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Duedman

I'm not sure if that would be a good idea. I'd prefer making Sevastopol NM and giving it MPP so Axis actually has a real decision to make whether to operate Railgun up north. Maybe cut 1 soviet mine or something similar to balance MPP.

It's difficult to give it MPP because it's a fortified town and there is no option for fortified city.

But NM, maybe! (In the other scenarios it also affects Turkish mobilisation, don't know if it does here, though I doubt that's relevant to this scenario very much.)

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RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/10/2022 5:50:42 PM

BillRunacre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

I'd suggest making Leningrad itself into a Primary Supply hex.

The main problem I think is that Leningrad can be supply-depleted with the rail gun and blockade. This is particularly a problem as it's a secondary supply with a max supply value of 5 which will end up as 3-4 after bombardment...

I'd be tempted to make it a Primary Supply, maybe with supply events to keep it down to a max supply value of 8 rather than 10. That would prevent the 'gamey' attack using supply to prevent units from reinforcing.

I see what you mean, though if Leningrad is made a Primary Supply Center I'd want to implement it in all campaigns.

There isn't really a good way to keep its supply above 5 but below 10 unless we introduced a script reducing Leningrad's strength in a similar way to say the Malta effect, not every turn but just having say a 25% chance of happening and inflicting 1-3 points of damage.

The Presence of Axis units near Leningrad Impedes Supply To The City, or something like that as the Pop Up text.

If it were every turn then any resources bombed or shelled to a very low strength would never recover unless the Axis were driven away, which would ultimately render Leningrad more vulnerable than it currently is, rather than less.

Thoughts are welcome on this!

< Message edited by BillRunacre -- 1/10/2022 5:54:20 PM >

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RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/11/2022 8:42:27 AM

The Land

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

I'd suggest making Leningrad itself into a Primary Supply hex.

The main problem I think is that Leningrad can be supply-depleted with the rail gun and blockade. This is particularly a problem as it's a secondary supply with a max supply value of 5 which will end up as 3-4 after bombardment...

I'd be tempted to make it a Primary Supply, maybe with supply events to keep it down to a max supply value of 8 rather than 10. That would prevent the 'gamey' attack using supply to prevent units from reinforcing.

I see what you mean, though if Leningrad is made a Primary Supply Center I'd want to implement it in all campaigns.

There isn't really a good way to keep its supply above 5 but below 10 unless we introduced a script reducing Leningrad's strength in a similar way to say the Malta effect, not every turn but just having say a 25% chance of happening and inflicting 1-3 points of damage.

The Presence of Axis units near Leningrad Impedes Supply To The City, or something like that as the Pop Up text.

If it were every turn then any resources bombed or shelled to a very low strength would never recover unless the Axis were driven away, which would ultimately render Leningrad more vulnerable than it currently is, rather than less.

Thoughts are welcome on this!

That sounds pretty sensible.

I understand why you'd want to keep it consistent across campaigns - and arguably you should - but you could potentially implement this only for 1942 where the Axis are already in a strong position. Strengthening Leningrad would have knock-on effects on strategy and balance in the 1939 campaign. (Arguably positive effects, as it'd make Leningrad a less obvious target for the initial Axis attack).

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RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/13/2022 7:21:04 PM

Sugar

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We`re talking about 1942 "Case Blue", where the Germans start with a whopping 5 med. tanks on lvl2?

And someone seriously found out it would be too much to let russian Inf. have Inf.2? Guess I`ll let my fingers off this campaign...

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RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/13/2022 8:58:22 PM

PvtBenjamin

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Honestly all the post '39 scenarios need to be seriously re worked for PBEM. I don't see why '42 should start with Malta in Allied hands, it basically forces the Axis to send bombers back to Sicily and gives the Allies too much of an advantage in Egypt. In PBEM games most Axis players control Malta by '42 unless they are going with the all in SU gig.

In my limited experience as Allies in '42 my concern wasn't Leningrad but the Caucasus. Seemed impossible to protect and its much more important in the long run.

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RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/13/2022 9:17:31 PM

The Land

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

Honestly all the post '39 scenarios need to be seriously re worked for PBEM. I don't see why '42 should start with Malta in Allied hands

I think the idea is that the scenario start setup reflects the historical progression of the war...?

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RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/13/2022 9:26:34 PM

PvtBenjamin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

I think the idea is that the scenario start setup reflects the historical progression of the war...?

NO S^&T!! I'm talking about the reality of the game rules. There is no reason to get snarky with all my comments because I called your France strategy BS.

You aren't as smart as you think you are.

< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 1/13/2022 9:28:18 PM >

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RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/16/2022 10:56:43 AM

The Land

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

I think the idea is that the scenario start setup reflects the historical progression of the war...?

NO S^&T!! I'm talking about the reality of the game rules. There is no reason to get snarky with all my comments because I called your France strategy BS.

You aren't as smart as you think you are.

Wasn't trying to be snarky, just a bit confused. Sorry if it came across that way.

But I think I follow your logic now!

So you're saying it would be worth having a set of scenarios that are set up to follow how a finely-balanced PBEM game would probably be at a particular point? That is an interesting idea, though I suspect the market for it would be relatively small - historical scenarios will appeal to more people than scenarios that are based on how PBEM plays out.

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RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/16/2022 1:43:12 PM

PvtBenjamin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

Wasn't trying to be snarky, just a bit confused. Sorry if it came across that way.

But I think I follow your logic now!

So you're saying it would be worth having a set of scenarios that are set up to follow how a finely-balanced PBEM game would probably be at a particular point? That is an interesting idea, though I suspect the market for it would be relatively small - historical scenarios will appeal to more people than scenarios that are based on how PBEM plays out.

My apologies I may have over reacted.

Personally I play PBEM games to win not for a historical experience. I bet I'm not alone. History = Allies win.

Hubert & Bill have done an extraordinary job making '39 balanced, I'd like to see the same thing in the '40, '41, '42 & '43 (maybe) scenarios. IMO these post '39 scenarios are basically AI games for PBEM play. People don't play them near as much so there hasn't been the feedback. To do this these scenarios would need to replicate more what happens in a PBEM game than history. Probably the thing I dislike the most about these scenarios is the research choices.

One idea would be to have more of the units placed by the player vs starting with units in place. Have a placement phase before the first turn. Back to my original thought Malta would definitely need to be in Axis hands in the '41 & '42 scenarios.

cheers

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RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/16/2022 2:55:09 PM

Duedman

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I'd actually not like the scenarios altered. The historic situation (i.e. its getting harder for Axis each year) are part of the appeal to me.
I for example usually not attack Malta and would not want to have it gifted to me.

But I see where you are coming from. I do not like playing the 1939 scenario because it becomes rather tedious and the real action usually only starts in 1941. And having lvl2 Panzers in July 1942 is very different from what you would have in a 1939 campaign.
Maybe additional parallel scenarios would be a solution. But where to begin and where to end lol
A placement phase would again need buffing of the Allied positions otherwise you know their locations and can probably cheese at least the AI.

I do not think there will be a "solution" other than just play from 1939 or maybe 1940 scenarios every time.

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RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/26/2022 10:56:05 AM

Duedman

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Did the amount of ammo the Gustav Railgun has at the start got altered? I could swear it used to start with 3 ammo. In my newest game it is down to 1 shot?! (This helps Leningrad a tiny bit)

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RE: Leningrad Soviet start position (1942 Case Blue) - 1/27/2022 12:22:23 PM

BillRunacre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Duedman

Did the amount of ammo the Gustav Railgun has at the start got altered? I could swear it used to start with 3 ammo. In my newest game it is down to 1 shot?! (This helps Leningrad a tiny bit)

There hasn't been a change, though it gains 1 shell a turn, and can store up to a maximum of 3.

So if all are fired then it will take 3 turns to regain its maximum shell supply.

Hopefully that explains it?

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