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RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/6/2022 8:13:41 AM   
devoncop


Posts: 1304
Joined: 7/17/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks for putting it up on You Tube....watching it now before breakfast in the UK ! Boy those marines are getting a hard time

Looking forward to seeing something using Allied forces too....ARVN etc or some Civil War or French Indo China action . I am reading the Max Hastings book at present and am still amazed at the shambles that was Dien Bien Phu...

< Message edited by devoncop -- 1/6/2022 8:14:04 AM >

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RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/6/2022 10:37:39 AM   
Crossroads


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quote:

ORIGINAL: devoncop

Looking forward to seeing something using Allied forces too....ARVN etc or some Civil War or French Indo China action . I am reading the Max Hastings book at present and am still amazed at the shambles that was Dien Bien Phu...


One thing I believe we achieved with this game is how different it is to play with different nations here.

Playing as US follows the trusted combined arms tactics to a certain level at least, ARVN for instance is a completely different beast. I've had a hoot play testing with ARVN, so vital to have them always maintain their cohesion in the field. Rifle companies neatly together, support arms in close support, no adventuring with isolated units. Then, and if you manage to choose where to do battle and where not, they can be quite effective too.

VM, VC, NVA then is a different matter. Use the terrain, do not engage in traditional battles, overwhelm the enemy at chosen places, assault assault assault, and the mighty French Paras as well as the hardened US Marines can be swept out before you can say vietcong.

Dien Bien Phu is well covered here, from the initial air assault to quickly secure the area, to what became a medieval siege fought under horrific conditions. The final battle is such a slaughter for the remaining French forces.


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RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/6/2022 10:51:16 AM   
devoncop


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Status: offline 		That is really good to hear.

It makes combined ARVN and US operations a real challenge as they should be. I assume there are also morale differences between the two nations and hopefully also between different ARVN units as their Special Forces/Rangers were very competent from what I have read whilst the regular Divivions were a very mixed bag.



< Message edited by devoncop -- 1/6/2022 10:55:23 AM >

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Post #: 33
RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/6/2022 11:15:20 AM   
Crossroads


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Status: offline 		Morale is indeed a key differentiator here. ARVN Civil Guard for instance has a Morale of 3, while IIRC most of ARVN is 5. There are scenarios where there's plenty of ARVN units with better morale, Operation Chopper for instance. And then there are those where they are most fragile indeed. What fun they are to play.

That said, VM/VC/NVA is a complete blast using the tactics they are good at. In night scenarios especially they are such a ferocious force to have.

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RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/6/2022 11:39:04 AM   
devoncop


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Status: offline 		Really interesting.

Thanks for that detail it definitely sounds fascinating and as someone who enjoys playing the VC/NVA/VM just as much as the Free World forces it is great to see that the various combatants have been differentiated so well and also that the tactics needed by each are so asynchronous.

What will be vital given the variation in morale levels both between factions and between scenarios is for me to examine at the beginning of the scenario exactly what the different morale and combat efficiency capabilities are of the different units within my command. I will be investing in a good quality notebook I think

Great stuff.

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RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/6/2022 11:49:48 AM   
Crossroads


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Status: offline 		We've tried for certain! One additional detail is the Optional Rules, most French Indochina War scenarios are recommended to be played without the new Enhanced Close Air Support model, so with those, although the French Paras and Foreign Legion units remain capable in so, so many ways, the airstrikes are not quite the precision strikes the US mastered during the Vietnam War.

Of other Optional Rules, Adaptive AI is absolutely recommended to be used as it is the Adaptive AI parameters that make the different factions if you will so different. From night assaults for VC to indeed artillery and air strike precision for US.

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RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/6/2022 12:02:05 PM   
berto


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The AAI is key to the game, and to the force differentiation. One could argue that it should be mandatory, not be optional at all.

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Post #: 37
RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/6/2022 2:03:17 PM   
devoncop


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Status: offline 		Personally I cant see why anyone would play without AAI switched on.

It's a defining feature of this iteration of the Campaign Series you guys have developed imho.

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RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/6/2022 3:12:39 PM   
Jason Petho


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Status: offline 		Something to keep in mind is that most of the scenarios currently only have the Side B (aka VC, VM, NVA) scripted, so the best experience will be playing as Side A.

This will be remedied in the future.

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RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/6/2022 4:09:44 PM   
devoncop


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Status: offline 		Ah...okay.

That's a shame but I guess in scenarios like the Dien Bien Phu ones, or others where the VC are attacking that may be less of a problem ?

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RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/6/2022 4:51:48 PM   
Crossroads


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Status: offline 		The French Indochina scenarios have plenty of battles with VM against computer controlled French forces

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RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/6/2022 4:52:11 PM   
berto


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It is exceedingly difficult to S[cripted]AI Side A for

  • search & destroy missions, where the enemy is all or largely hidden, whereabouts unknown (cat and mouse?)
  • where the terrain is interlaced with rivers and streams, creating nightmares for the pathfinding routines
  • where the helicopter borne attacking forces are (loading and) taking off, landing (and unloading), and flying about across four different vertical flight zones

    In addition to the usual challenges of successfully coding an attacker AI.

    Not to say scripting the attacker is impossible. It might take huge amounts of time and micromanagement, and repeated testing, to get it right.

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    • Post #: 42
    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/6/2022 4:55:26 PM   
    Crossroads


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    Status: offline     		^ +1

    My 0.02 for adding new scenarios with VC/NVA as the attacking side, rather.

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    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/6/2022 5:23:29 PM   
    devoncop


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crossroads

    The French Indochina scenarios have plenty of battles with VM against computer controlled French forces


    Thats what I figured...

    Good stuff.



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    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/6/2022 5:35:36 PM   
    Jason Petho


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    Status: offline     		FYI, I will eventually go through the list and script the SIDE A components for my scenarios for the ones that aren't done, it will take time, though

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    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/6/2022 6:16:03 PM   
    devoncop


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    Status: offline     		Thanks Jason. That would be brilliant.

    I appreciate it's a huge job .

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    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/8/2022 3:41:33 PM   
    Jason Petho


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    Status: offline     		I will be streaming today at 11AM Pacific Standard Time.

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    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/9/2022 12:59:40 AM   
    Jason Petho


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    Status: offline     		In case you missed the live session today:

    Live Session on Campaign Series YouTube

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    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/9/2022 6:15:36 AM   
    devoncop


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    Status: offline     		Really enjoyed the French scenarios you covered in this last stream the French reliance on multiple para drops was very well portrayed.

    For the first time in my playing the Campaign series I am really motivated to play through the game chronologically after the bootcamp/training scenarios are completed so I get the whole French Indo China and Vietnamese Civil War experience before I get into the beginning of the US quagmire !

    < Message edited by devoncop -- 1/9/2022 6:22:24 AM >

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    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/9/2022 4:57:18 PM   
    Jason Petho


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    Status: offline     		I'm happy to hear that, devoncop!! It will be a fun adventure, for sure!


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    Post #: 50
    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/9/2022 8:18:33 PM   
    TomWalton

     

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    Status: offline     		There's no way I'm going to watch 3h 16m of someone else playing a video game...

    3h 16 fascinating minutes later, I have question on tactics, if I may.

    Isn't it better to disrupt an enemy unit first, before trying to assault it? Jason seemed to try way more assaults than anything else (though in the end doing so did seem to work for him...) ?

    Kudos to all involved in this. It's looking really, really great!

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    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/9/2022 8:31:56 PM   
    Jason Petho


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    quote:

    3h 16 fascinating minutes later


    Ha! That's awesome! Congratulations for sticking through it!

    quote:

    Isn't it better to disrupt an enemy unit first, before trying to assault it?


    This will completely depend on the nation you are playing. In the second scenario, for example, the Viet Minh have assault bonuses, so the best tactic to use with the Viet Minh is to get up close and personnal and assault over and over again.

    Would I do the same thing with ARVN troops in the 60's? No, definitely not. The tactics would change to keeping my troops well organized and heavily relying on heavy weapons to cause disruptions (assume I cause them, because with FOW, you don't know if they are disrupted or not) and then assault with the entire company, while attempting to flank the position, etc.

    You can see more of that with the Operation Starlite scenario I am playing on Wednesdays, where I am playing as the Marines - I have to be more methodical in my tactics.

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    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/10/2022 4:45:48 AM   
    devoncop


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

    quote:

    3h 16 fascinating minutes later


    Ha! That's awesome! Congratulations for sticking through it!

    quote:



    This will completely depend on the nation you are playing. In the second scenario, for example, the Viet Minh have assault bonuses, so the best tactic to use with the Viet Minh is to get up close and personnal and assault over and over again.





    That is interesting. So where is it laid out that the Viet Minh get assault bonuses in the second scenario ? Would that be in the intiial briefing ? (Sorry I am just finishing watching the "Bruno" scenario on You Tube so havent got to the second one yet).


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    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/10/2022 5:54:04 AM   
    TomWalton

     

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    quote:

    This will completely depend on the nation you are playing. In the second scenario, for example, the Viet Minh have assault bonuses, so the best tactic to use with the Viet Minh is to get up close and personnal and assault over and over again.

    Would I do the same thing with ARVN troops in the 60's? No, definitely not. The tactics would change to keeping my troops well organized and heavily relying on heavy weapons to cause disruptions (assume I cause them, because with FOW, you don't know if they are disrupted or not) and then assault with the entire company, while attempting to flank the position, etc.


    Thanks for the clarification, Jason. That's pretty awesome! This is going to be an amazing game!

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    Post #: 54
    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/10/2022 7:51:54 AM   
    Crossroads


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    Status: offline     		There's also quite a few Adpative AI parameters having to do with various assault effect calculations. They are nation specific, and can be used even at scenario level to have the scenario play out to intended results. For instance:

    quote:

    160 [ n] assault_attack_low_on_ammo_effect
    161 [ n] assault_attack_fatigued_effect
    162 [ n] assault_attack_aggressiveness_effect
    163 [ n] assault_attack_mounted_effect
    164 [ n] assault_attack_halftrack_effect
    165 [ n] assault_attack_vehicle_hard_terrain_effect
    166 [ n] assault_attack_vehicle_soft_terrain_effect
    167 [ n] assault_attack_nofire_nomove_effect
    168 [ n] assault_attack_night_effect
    169 [ ] assault_attack_flank_effect
    170 [ n] assault_defense_low_on_ammo_effect
    171 [ n] assault_defense_fatigued_effect
    172 [ n] assault_defense_disrupted_effect
    173 [ n] assault_defense_dig_in_effect
    174 [ n] assault_defense_hardtarget_soft_terrain_effect
    175 [ n] assault_defense_vehicle_urban_effect
    176 [ n] assault_defense_nofire_nomove_effect
    177 [ n] assault_defense_disrupted_morale_adjustment
    178 [ ] assault_defense_flank_morale_adjustment


    For instance, the VM/VC/NVA utilizes the night assault parameter in particular, they are head and shoulders above everyone else on that aspect.

    In general, Adaptive AI parameters then in turn can be accessed from Lua code with the CS Event Enginge api, for immediate effect.

    Tons of possibilities, and we as dev team are still learning how to push the envelope even further. Adaptive AI is rather an intriguing element of the game, and as Berto posted somewhere while an Optional Rule it should not be considered as an option if one wants to have the game playing as designed.

    That is true of course to most if not all Optional Rules. They are there for a reason.




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    Post #: 55
    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/10/2022 9:02:58 AM   
    devoncop


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    Status: offline     		Very interesting indeed.

    Can you just clarify though that the player is aware of such scenario specific boosts and if so where it is described ?

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    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/10/2022 9:09:28 AM   
    Crossroads


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    Status: offline     		What I described is a general concept, devoncop. Events are often communicated by a pop up message for instance. Scenario briefings often hint at things. Etc

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    Post #: 57
    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/10/2022 9:41:35 AM   
    devoncop


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    Status: offline     		Ah....okay. Gotcha.

    Thanks....In other words ..............read the briefings properly :-)


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    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/12/2022 3:22:40 PM   
    Jason Petho


    Posts: 15009
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    Status: offline     		I will be streaming tonight on Twitch at 6PM PST.

    Continuing my attacks in Operation Starlite

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    Post #: 59
    RE: Campaign Series Legion on Twitch - 1/13/2022 5:11:25 AM   
    Jason Petho


    Posts: 15009
    Joined: 6/22/2004
    From: Terrace, BC, Canada
    Status: offline     		In case you missed the live stream tonight!

    Continuation of Operation Starlite

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    Post #: 60
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