Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Over Toe units?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> Over Toe units? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Over Toe units? - 1/13/2022 7:14:20 PM   
bomanz

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 1/13/2022
Status: offline 		I am currently playing several games as the German player. It is currently early in the war, turn 7 and 11 and 6 on the games. I have noticed that I am encountering Soviet units with absurd man power, I have played as the Soviet and have a grasp of what the standard sized soviet inf/cav div. is respective of the time period in question. These units after the combat solution comes up I see that the single Cav div. with two support Art. has a manpower level of 16k men, and a few hundred guns. I have seen Inf div with near 20k men in them. Is there something I am missing? When I played as the soviet the strongest Div. Cav unit I could get was a 8k men from the far east.

I guess what I am asking if this is just a glitch, on the combat results showing more men then are actually there? Similar to when It shows no actual planes flew to the battle but still shows that some were lost?

The thing that has me twisting is It is only when playing a few opponents, I have played/playing over 10 games as the German player, and several as the soviet. It only happens on a few players, and never as a soviet player.

Any info on what I am doing wrong as the soviet, as I cant seem to get my toe above the max of say 14k from the far east div.

Thanks
Bo



Post #: 1
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/13/2022 7:39:01 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		this thread raised the issue

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5124659&mpage=1&key=�

the OP offered this explanation for what he was doing:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToxicThug11

...

By disbanding and lowering TOE of other tank and mechanized divisions I am able to create high TOE monsters very quickly.



must confess I can't follow the logic but it seems to be relying on some quirk of the game system. I've seen over TOE Soviet units depending on TOE changes and so on, but this reads like a deliberate set of actions

_____________________________


(in reply to bomanz)
Post #: 2
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/13/2022 8:36:48 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Is this simply a trade-off? A player chooses to have a few larger units than many under-strength units by disbanding understrength units. If so, it seems like a legitimate course of action; however, I am not sure of the value of doing so myself. As the Soviets, having a certain "counter density" seems critical … even if they are crap.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 3
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/13/2022 8:42:00 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		During testing in 2018 I had similiar cases. IIRC what happened was that the unit had new slots after a TOE-upgrade amd filled them, but did not shed old redundamt elements from no longer existing slots, leading to overstrength in terms of humanpower.

Can't say if this is the reason here or not.

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 1/13/2022 8:45:42 PM >

_____________________________

The Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources.
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 4
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 7:47:04 AM   
bomanz

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 1/13/2022
Status: offline 		Understanding the trade off of merging units into a working fighting force makes sense, but this seems like it is basically mashing two full str div together, to make a super unit? I figured toe limits set a max?

Can I merge two German panzer Div together to make a 30k unit with 500 tanks? No. Yet here I am facing Soviet Cav div with 14k men. Will this exploit work when merging soviet corps?

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 5
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 8:16:42 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bomanz

Understanding the trade off of merging units into a working fighting force makes sense, but this seems like it is basically mashing two full str div together, to make a super unit? I figured toe limits set a max?

Can I merge two German panzer Div together to make a 30k unit with 500 tanks? No. Yet here I am facing Soviet Cav div with 14k men. Will this exploit work when merging soviet corps?


its basically an exploit that relies on the target unit having vacant TOE slots. So a German Pzr division at the start has a few missing elements but is basically filled out, so no, this trick doesn't work.

afaik, no it wouldn't work with the Corps for the same reason, they don't have empty lines in their TOE that might then pick up all sorts of stuff that can be matched to the profile.

That flexibility is basically a good idea, it means if you have lots of something in the pool, formations will ignore their ideal asset (which may be lacking) and adopt something that is available.

as far as I understand the other thread, this is a bit of game system abuse. It doesn't happen by accident, a player gets a very short term gain off it, but the resulting units are fragile and will shed the excess when their underlying TOE shifts. Basically its the sort of thing a Soviet player who wants to win by T8 might decide to do

_____________________________


(in reply to bomanz)
Post #: 6
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 8:41:51 AM   
bomanz

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 1/13/2022
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: loki100

this thread raised the issue




Yep you have to know how to do it and execute it, I have played several games as the Soviet and I have yet to achieve this. I have merged units that are basically wiped out to make a unit that is close to ready, but this is just a exploit.

As the other thread discusses making super soviet Tank units to crush Panzer units is a exploit, I was wondering how they beat the crap out of panzer units, so easily in my game literally had a full str panzer div reduced to a shell in one turn.

Guess I will just resign those games that are using this exploit, unless the developer is willing to let me make super Panzer divisions to counter it??????

< Message edited by bomanz -- 1/14/2022 8:49:01 AM >

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 7
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 8:52:26 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		tend to agree, it can't happen by accident, its probably not a loophole that can be easily closed (though its now known and on the list) and its pretty gamey as an approach

_____________________________


(in reply to bomanz)
Post #: 8
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 1:53:48 PM   
ToxicThug11


Posts: 67
Joined: 9/2/2021
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		One day when I am able to post images without the forum stopping me I will show you guys how to do it
Assign them to a front (not an army), put them on a decent railyard and set them to refit. That's all that's needed to be done really. You can create 155 toe Rifle Divisions, Cavalry and Tanks from turn 3 which means you can endlessly break pockets. It definitely has a trade off though. The more Toe you concentrate, a single hit from a strong German division can wipe out all the AFVs, and if these units are pocketed it is very sad.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 9
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 1:57:03 PM   
ToxicThug11


Posts: 67
Joined: 9/2/2021
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		I discovered this as an accident as I like to assign divisions in the rear to fronts and concentrate toe into divisions by disbanding / lowering TOE in non threatened sectors. If this is actually an exploit then I will stop doing it. I assigned my divisions to fronts for better admin rolls, not intentionally to exploit the game, although it is questionable whether moving TOE where you need it is actually an exploit.

(in reply to ToxicThug11)
Post #: 10
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 2:25:05 PM   
ToxicThug11


Posts: 67
Joined: 9/2/2021
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Hopefully this works. I had to cut the image to make it upload, as the file was too large.

Here you can see a single tank division with 599 AFVs. The other one has 397 AFVs. In just two divisions there are 1000 AFVs.

Note their location on Smolensk, with level 4 priority. Also note that this has been accomplished on turn 3 in a MP game.

The 599 AFV division has a CV of 18.7, and the 397 AFV division has a CV of 7.2. With additional infantry, artillery and air support this can open any pocket on turn 3.

A highly mobile way to bring 25.9 CV from a tight space. These divisions can reliably cause Germans to retreat with just hasty attacks, with pretty horrendous AFV losses for the Germans.

Grigory Kulik

(in reply to ToxicThug11)
Post #: 11
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 2:29:39 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		I was checking how Axis AI performs in Road to Leningrad and i also had over 100% TOE rifle divisions just by stacking them with army HQ, supply priority 4, on top of depot with supply priority 4.
And as we know Soviets have insane supply capabilities so its not a problem.

I had no need of lowering TOE or any other actions. In GC it might be needed.

_____________________________

Axis Bias mod Fanboy
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5144537

(in reply to ToxicThug11)
Post #: 12
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 2:36:33 PM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline 		Posting for ToxicThug:


(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 13
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 2:39:43 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		One more turn in an assault army and they will have 100CPP thus even better stats. Poor Axis player.

_____________________________

Axis Bias mod Fanboy
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5144537

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 14
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 2:41:41 PM   
ToxicThug11


Posts: 67
Joined: 9/2/2021
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

One more turn in an assault army and they will have 100CPP thus even better stats. Poor Axis player.

Can you still make assault fronts / armies before 1942?

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 15
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 2:50:38 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ToxicThug11


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

One more turn in an assault army and they will have 100CPP thus even better stats. Poor Axis player.

Can you still make assault fronts / armies before 1942?

Manual on ftp is outdated and I don't have access to a game right now to check it in a game folder. I though that at least 1 army can be set to an Assault, maybe I am wrong.


This over 100% TOE thing can happen during any period of the game? Not only in first N turns?

< Message edited by Stamb -- 1/14/2022 2:52:25 PM >

_____________________________

Axis Bias mod Fanboy
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5144537

(in reply to ToxicThug11)
Post #: 16
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 3:04:31 PM   
ToxicThug11


Posts: 67
Joined: 9/2/2021
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		No idea as the latest I've had a game go is turn 25ish, I dont see why rifle divisions couldn't go over toe later than that though.

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 17
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 3:40:46 PM   
IDGBIA

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 10/30/2021
Status: offline 		some of the tank divs that start near Smolensk have something like 200% of bt-7s or t26s so if you just refit them on t1 they fill up alot and have like 250-300 avfs each, also I hit you with 4 divs 3 tank divs and 1 mech div into your tank div, also soviet arty early war has loads of extra support elments which I think join and inflate the numbers a bit but in regards to our game specifically I didnt intentionally exploit or disband and manipulate the max toe at all I just put the tank divs on a depot on refit and they kept their 200


again if you are talking about our game your panzer division was under full ammo, had fatigue not full cpp and was on clear terrain and I attacked with with 3 fresh tank/mech and some extra inf divs under rokkosovsky swapped into the corp hq under toblukin in the army hq, the attack represented a significant effort in terms of APs, leaders and tanks (1k tanks is over 10% of all soviet afvs after the initial pockets get cleared)all focused on a single point, I think its a fair trade off and you could always do it yourself if you think its worth doing.


heres a picture of the 17th tank div right at the start of the game so like you dont even have to do anything to make this threatening, playing axis you gotta keep in mind sov has 2 of these things near Smolensk to use as a magic bullet so if he doesnt throw them away on the land bridge right away you should be careful not to end your panzer divs alone on clear terrain since you know they will be around nearby somewhere building up cpp






Attachment (1)

(in reply to ToxicThug11)
Post #: 18
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 5:11:10 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		First off, 2 Soviet artillery units can have 5000 men so that can make any division look much bigger. The big rifle divisions with nothing attached are almost 15k. I do see cases where the AI has units over TOE and not due to a downgrade in the OB to a smaller OB. I assume this is from merging units. By merging units you can end up with more than 100% of TOE if you include in damaged elements. These should eventually return to the pool, but you can see some big (but not necessarily effective) units this way.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to bomanz)
Post #: 19
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 6:22:10 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		My game vs AI in Road To Leningrad. No merging or any other tricks/abuses. Lvl 4 depot and HQ with lvl 4 supply is all what is needed. I can attach save with all turns if needed






Another issue that was reported by some other player: Axis AI is not holding a line, it just withdraw divisions from his flanks and as a result:


_____________________________

Axis Bias mod Fanboy
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5144537

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 20
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 7:00:46 PM   
ToxicThug11


Posts: 67
Joined: 9/2/2021
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Thank you Stamb.
Very cool!

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 21
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 8:11:28 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Please do send the saves as I'd like to take a look at it. Hopefully you have prelog saves from the German turn before the Soviet logistics where they went over TOE. What you are showing though, could all be WAD. The Guards Rifle OB is smaller than several of the Rifle Div OBs, so they can be oversized when they first change OBs. Same for Rifle Divisions that change from the 41a to the 41b OB.

As for the Axis attacking AI issue (leaving gaps in it's line), Gary worked on that yesterday and says he made progress improving it.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 22
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 8:20:33 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Please do send the saves as I'd like to take a look at it. Hopefully you have prelog saves from the German turn before the Soviet logistics where they went over TOE. What you are showing though, could all be WAD. The Guards Rifle OB is smaller than several of the Rifle Div OBs, so they can be oversized when they first change OBs. Same for Rifle Divisions that change from the 41a to the 41b OB.


I do not know exactly at which point they went over TOE, so I will attach all saves. And I have all prelog saves.
Link:
https://ufile.io/08uj9yq0

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
As for the Axis attacking AI issue (leaving gaps in it's line), Gary worked on that yesterday and says he made progress improving it.

Awesome

_____________________________

Axis Bias mod Fanboy
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5144537

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 23
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 8:23:54 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		Rifle divisions are changing TOE pretty often, so it might be WAD indeed. What Soviet players have in their long run GC, is it possible to go over 100 TOE when there is no frequent TOE upgrades?

< Message edited by Stamb -- 1/14/2022 8:24:10 PM >

_____________________________

Axis Bias mod Fanboy
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5144537

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 24
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 8:40:36 PM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline 		Doesn't explain why tank divisions go significantly over TOE by turn 3 though.

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 25
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 8:51:10 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		Agree. I have saves with rifle divisions only.

_____________________________

Axis Bias mod Fanboy
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5144537

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 26
RE: Over Toe units? - 1/14/2022 10:50:40 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		The early tank divisions have a huge OB. I think what that player does is disband enough units so that a few he puts into refit at a depot can fill up to 100% and become huge. These will then downgrade to the smaller Tank division OB and be way overstrength. As for the 13th and 17th TDs, they arrive on turn 1 overstrength in tanks and have been set up that way. I can't explain though for sure how it went from 472 AFVs to 599 in the turn 3 screenshot. These units are stuffed with light tanks but are missing heavy and flame tanks (and mediums, but others can sub for them). They may be able to get replacements for their missing tanks without giving up all the excess light tanks. In fact, that's probably how it's happening.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 27
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> Over Toe units? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.063