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Difference - 1/13/2022 4:28:14 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Well we are going back some when I played the East front and West Front games i.e. near their release!

To be honest these days I do prefer this kind of scale where every man is counted an not just an abstract strength number, still, I'm curious to how much the engine has changed and how well it recreates Vietnam and the hunting, hit and run, booby traps, ambush and the general play of Vietnam War.

If it does these things well colour me interested.

How different is it to the old WW2 games?

Oh is stuff like Spookey in it and air strikes, napalm etc? Can we have gunships spraying the perimeter whilst we insert troops to a hot LZ? Does it cover setting night LP's and flares etc for night time turns? Actually do we have multi day scenarios?

I've been reading and listening to alot of Vietnam memoirs recently so it has got me in the mood for gaming the War..

Thanks

< Message edited by wodin -- 1/13/2022 4:33:25 PM >

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Post #: 1
RE: Difference - 1/13/2022 4:34:07 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Well we are going back some when I played the East front and West Front games i.e. near their release!

To be honest these days I do prefer this kind of scale where every man is counted an not just an abstract strength number, still, I'm curious to how much the engine has changed and how well it recreates Vietnam and the hunting, hit and run, booby traps, ambush and the general play of Vietnam War.

If it does these things well colour me interested.

How different is it to the old WW2 games?


Night and day different. While it will feel similar, it is a whole new world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
Oh is stuff like Spookey in it and air strikes, napalm etc?


Yes and yes and yes!


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Post #: 2
RE: Difference - 1/13/2022 5:47:53 PM   
berto


Posts: 20708
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

... I do prefer this kind of scale where every man is counted an not just an abstract strength number ...

The game still follows the legacy design where 1 Strength Point (SP) represents a half squad, where a squad is generally 4-10 men, more or less.

The "more or less" is key. In actual battle, in actual historical engagements, squads could be understrength, with fewer than 4 men, could be overstrength, with a dozen men or more.

A distinguishing facet of the Campaign Series is, even in just a single game, the wide eras it covers. The initial release of Campaign Series: Vietnam covers the years 1948-1967, for instance. Later DLC(s) will cover 1968-1989. (The planned Korean War DLC will cover 1950-1953.) That's over 40 years!

So many years, so many nations, so many different battles! Hopeless to research and pinpoint the exact number of men in this or that or the other squad at a particular battle in a particular year. Hard-core gamers and other grognards are sure to dispute if, say, we specify 18 men in <name that platoon>. "No, no, no! Everybody knows <name that platoon> was under- [or over-] strength in this engagement [or in this campaign], that the 18 should be 15 [or whatever]."

It is in part to avoid such disputes -- also to retain our sanity as we research and design OOBs and scenarios across so many years, nations, engagements -- that we employ the general "half squad" to signify a single SP. (1 SP will always signify a single vehicle, or helicopter, etc., however.)

And: If it ain't broke -- "it" being the legacy game, in this one aspect -- don't fix it.

Not saying you are one, but some grognards will be unhappy that we don't represent non-vehicular unit strengths down to the individual man. Sorry about that, but we do have our good reasons for retaining the convention that "1 Strength Point represents a [general] half squad".

< Message edited by berto -- 2/5/2022 12:22:00 AM >

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Post #: 3
RE: Difference - 1/13/2022 11:34:26 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

... I do prefer this kind of scale where every man is counted an not just an abstract strength number ...

The game still follows the legacy design where 1 Strength Point (SP) represents a half squad, where a squad is generally 4-8 men, more or less.

The "more or less" is key. In actual battle, in actual historical engagements, squads could be understrength, with fewer than 4 men, could be overstrength, with a dozen men or more.

A distinguishing facet of the Campaign Series is, even in just a single game, the wide eras it covers. The initial release of Campaign Series: Vietnam covers the years 1948-1967, for instance. Later DLC(s) will cover 1968-1989. (The planned Korean War DLC will cover 1950-1953.) That's over 40 years!

So many years, so many nations, so many different battles! Hopeless to research and pinpoint the exact number of men in this or that or the other squad at a particular battle in a particular year. Hard-core gamers and other grognards are sure to dispute if, say, we specify 18 men in <name that platoon>. "No, no, no! Everybody knows <name that platoon> was under- [or over-] strength in this engagement [or in this campaign], that the 18 should be 15 [or whatever]."

It is in part to avoid such disputes -- also to retain our sanity as we research and design OOBs and scenarios across so many years, nations, engagements -- that we employ the general "half squad" to signify a single SP. (1 SP will always signify a single vehicle, or helicopter, etc., however.)

And: If it ain't broke -- "it" being the legacy game, in this one aspect -- don't fix it.

Not saying you are one, but some grognards will be unhappy that we don't represent non-vehicular unit strengths down to the individual man. Sorry about that, but we do have our good reasons for retaining the convention that "1 Strength Point represents a [general] half squad".



I'm sorry to say I am one of those nit picky wargamers who always want each man counted when playing tactical games.

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Post #: 4
RE: Difference - 1/14/2022 2:02:40 AM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

I'm sorry to say I am one of those nit picky wargamers who always want each man counted when playing tactical games.


Nothing to be sorry about at all, everyone has their preferences.

The logistics of adding that type of detail to just the game itself is out of our scope for our small development team, unfortunately. Let alone the drastic engine changes that would be required to facilitate that (movement, transport capacity, etc, etc).

Regardless, the game is certainly worth an experience even without that level of counting. Really!

< Message edited by Jason Petho -- 1/14/2022 2:03:20 AM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Difference - 1/14/2022 3:01:53 AM   
Big Ivan


Posts: 1963
Joined: 6/9/2008
From: Mansfield, Ohio USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

quote:

I'm sorry to say I am one of those nit picky wargamers who always want each man counted when playing tactical games.


Nothing to be sorry about at all, everyone has their preferences.

The logistics of adding that type of detail to just the game itself is out of our scope for our small development team, unfortunately. Let alone the drastic engine changes that would be required to facilitate that (movement, transport capacity, etc, etc).

Regardless, the game is certainly worth an experience even without that level of counting. Really!



++1 Jason!! I found a few other games that count individual man casualties excessive bookkeeping. Panzerblitz, Panzer Leader and Advanced Squad Leader didn't have that kind of detail. I'm happy the Campaign Series doesen't either!

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Post #: 6
RE: Difference - 1/14/2022 5:39:39 PM   
Phoenix100

 

Posts: 2826
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		I was also hoping that the counters would tell me how many men were in each squad. But, I would still be interested - definitely (and despite having no interest at all in this theatre) - if the AI really has been worked on to make it better than what it was. So, can I ask - can we get a decent number of SP games out of this title, and has the AI really improved?

And second to that - will any such improvements appear in the ME game as a patch?

Thanks!

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Post #: 7
RE: Difference - 1/14/2022 5:51:26 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

I was also hoping that the counters would tell me how many men were in each squad. But, I would still be interested - definitely (and despite having no interest at all in this theatre) - if the AI really has been worked on to make it better than what it was. So, can I ask - can we get a decent number of SP games out of this title, and has the AI really improved?


The AI is night and day difference over any of the predecessors, absolutely.

SP games? I'm not familiar with the acronym?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100
And second to that - will any such improvements appear in the ME game as a patch?


Yes, Middle East will be upgraded to 3.00 to include all the upgrades we have done with Vietnam.


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Post #: 8
RE: Difference - 1/14/2022 5:55:43 PM   
devoncop


Posts: 1304
Joined: 7/17/2006
Status: offline 		Jason...SP games just mean Single Player... as in scenarios that are not just H2H.



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Post #: 9
RE: Difference - 1/14/2022 6:01:12 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		Oh, thank you!

Yes, you will be able to play every scenario against the AI. The AI has been scripted for SIDE B for most scenarios for the CSVN 1.00 release.

With the exception of the Tournament scenarios, those are specifically for H2H.

< Message edited by Jason Petho -- 1/14/2022 6:02:11 PM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Difference - 1/14/2022 6:16:44 PM   
Phoenix100

 

Posts: 2826
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks Jason! Side B is not the US, I assume?

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Post #: 11
RE: Difference - 1/14/2022 6:19:47 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		That is correct, SIDE B is typically the Viet Minh, Viet Cong, North Vietnamese

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Post #: 12
RE: Difference - 1/14/2022 7:04:42 PM   
AndySfromVA

 

Posts: 130
Joined: 4/4/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Well we are going back some when I played the East front and West Front games i.e. near their release!

To be honest these days I do prefer this kind of scale where every man is counted an not just an abstract strength number, still, I'm curious to how much the engine has changed and how well it recreates Vietnam and the hunting, hit and run, booby traps, ambush and the general play of Vietnam War.

If it does these things well colour me interested.

How different is it to the old WW2 games?

Oh is stuff like Spookey in it and air strikes, napalm etc? Can we have gunships spraying the perimeter whilst we insert troops to a hot LZ? Does it cover setting night LP's and flares etc for night time turns? Actually do we have multi day scenarios?

I've been reading and listening to alot of Vietnam memoirs recently so it has got me in the mood for gaming the War..

Thanks


One of the best war movies I ever saw is "We Were Soldiers", dealing with action in the Ia Drang valley. If a Vietnam game can simulate that kind of ultra tense action it would be awesome.

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 13
RE: Difference - 1/14/2022 7:13:50 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		There are a few scenarios that deal with campaign, you should enjoy them indeed!

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Post #: 14
RE: Difference - 1/14/2022 8:07:17 PM   
devoncop


Posts: 1304
Joined: 7/17/2006
Status: offline 		A quick question that just struck me.... Watching your excellent You Tube playthrough of Operation Starlight I was wondering as to how much variation there would be in VC dispositions and movement compared to what I have watched. Obviously they would be mindful of the need to defend the VP's but hopefully the specific units in the same places would vary between playthroughs or am I being overly optimistic ?

I am just considering the replayability of scenarios. If I am understanding the new adaptive AI right I think I have reasons to be hopeful ....is that correct ?

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Post #: 15
RE: Difference - 1/14/2022 8:16:18 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: devoncop

A quick question that just struck me.... Watching your excellent You Tube playthrough of Operation Starlight I was wondering as to how much variation there would be in VC dispositions and movement compared to what I have watched. Obviously they would be mindful of the need to defend the VP's but hopefully the specific units in the same places would vary between playthroughs or am I being overly optimistic ?

I am just considering the replayability of scenarios. If I am understanding the new adaptive AI right I think I have reasons to be hopeful ....is that correct ?


It will depend on the scenario. Some scenarios will have more flexibility than others.

This one, since the Viet Cong are defending, has limited options for the Viet Cong (for now, I can also change this in the future - crunch time, of course, I could only script so much variety) in their defensive posture.

The beauty of the living game concept is that we will continually improve the scripts for the scenarios to make them even more enjoyable and have more variety.

This will be particular true of the "A Week In..." series of scenarios, that I am still continuing to update to this very hour (although these updates won't be in the official 1.00 release, they will be available soon)


_____________________________


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More info: Facebook & CS Legion

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Post #: 16
RE: Difference - 1/14/2022 10:32:00 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AndySfromVA


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Well we are going back some when I played the East front and West Front games i.e. near their release!

To be honest these days I do prefer this kind of scale where every man is counted an not just an abstract strength number, still, I'm curious to how much the engine has changed and how well it recreates Vietnam and the hunting, hit and run, booby traps, ambush and the general play of Vietnam War.

If it does these things well colour me interested.

How different is it to the old WW2 games?

Oh is stuff like Spookey in it and air strikes, napalm etc? Can we have gunships spraying the perimeter whilst we insert troops to a hot LZ? Does it cover setting night LP's and flares etc for night time turns? Actually do we have multi day scenarios?

I've been reading and listening to alot of Vietnam memoirs recently so it has got me in the mood for gaming the War..

Thanks


One of the best war movies I ever saw is "We Were Soldiers", dealing with action in the Ia Drang valley. If a Vietnam game can simulate that kind of ultra tense action it would be awesome.



Great film and great book.

Also check this...

LINK TO BOARDGAMES

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Post #: 17
RE: Difference - 1/15/2022 7:44:06 AM   
Crossroads


Posts: 17372
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Great film and great book.

Also check this...

LINK TO BOARDGAMES

Thanks for the share, Wodin, I haven't bought a minis boardgame for a while. None this year, in fact

Which one to start with, then... They Were Soldiers and LZ X-RAY looks like a good one.

... I see, only available together with Dak To game for 90 bucks. Add a 50 note for shipping. Hmm, I will check the BGG market first if there's a seller available this side of the pond.



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CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

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Post #: 18
RE: Difference - 1/15/2022 12:21:57 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		I personally enjoyed Jason playing through some Indochina scenarios, e.g. DBP, PK15 and Mao Khe.So far, he's playing the French and the VN better than the Americans.😉

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 19
RE: Difference - 1/15/2022 2:19:21 PM   
devoncop


Posts: 1304
Joined: 7/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

I personally enjoyed Jason playing through some Indochina scenarios, e.g. DBP, PK15 and Mao Khe.So far, he's playing the French and the VN better than the Americans.😉

Klink, Oberst


+1

It's great to see how very differently each nation plays in this iteration of the series....much more so than EF,WF or Rising Sun. Although there were obviously differences in CSME this game amplifies them with a lot of the added extra features.

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Post #: 20
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