Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: actrade

Having read all of the posts regarding Matrix's new policy, there are a couple of things I'd like to point out. One, context matters. The picture posted of the fruit that looked exactly like a woman's vagina with a note "remind you of anything" is clearly meant to show a woman's vagina and inappropriate for a WWII game forum, I don't care if it's off topic or not. I certainly would not want my wife/daughter walking up behind me with that post there. Anyone who says different is hiding behind calls of censorship, which I adamantly oppose. Two, Matrix has decided to descend down a slippery slope that we see happening across the globe, where "fact checkers" decide what's true/untrue, but who checks the checkers? Three, back to my first point about context. Do historical-based nose art pictures belong in a WWII-based game? Of course they do, it's part of history. Do modern nose art pictures that would have been deemed pornographic in WWII belong...that I'm not so sure.

Rewriting history so it passes today's politically correct standards is simply wrong. How does one learn from history if one rewrites it? I think it is a mistake on Matrix's part to censor anything that can legitimately have come from history. For example, I use one of the swastika flag mods in WiTE2, not because I'm a Nazi or a sympathizer, but because I'm a history buff and it takes away from my immersion to see the Iron Cross flag. I understand it used to be illegal in Germany, but not anymore. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45142651

I would also point out that the hammer and sickle killed more people that the swastika did as both were run by sociopathic monsters, yet there's never any issue with that. Changing history is very, very dangerous as it allows those changing to also change or rewrite out the atrocities as well.


While I have no issue with Matrix trying to apply some standards, I would caution them that their customer base is largely history buffs like myself. I for one, am not interested in games that have "sanitized" to the point that they no longer represent historical facts and while pictures on women on planes may not be PC today, they were in fact history. I would ask that Matrix at least consider using a historical lense when deciding what is pornographic or objectifying women. I spent 6 years in the USAF as an Arabic translator and as one post noted, there are parts of this world where a women in shorts is pornographic so we need to be very careful when heading down this path.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The collective effort that some on the forum are making to try and justify this is really quite something.

The issue is less the images per se, but the motivations behind posting them. It's certainly not historical appreciation.

This post-hoc attempt to dress up such content under the banner of "appreciating history" is a clear fabrication intended to blur the actual motivations.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The collective effort that some on the forum are making to try and justify this is really quite something.

The issue is less the images per se, *but the motivations behind posting them. It's certainly not historical appreciation.

This post-hoc attempt to dress up such content under the banner of "appreciating history" is a clear fabrication intended to blur the actual motivations*.

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ORIGINAL: Ian R

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The collective effort that some on the forum are making to try and justify this is really quite something.

The issue is less the images per se, *but the motivations behind posting them. It's certainly not historical appreciation.

This post-hoc attempt to dress up such content under the banner of "appreciating history" is a clear fabrication intended to blur the actual motivations*.

So, you agree then, that those of us who like looking at nose art should leave this forum, and go somewhere else?

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Incidentally, the asterisked section above bespeaks a process of generalised subjective assessment on your part. We could probably label that "poster subject profiling".

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Additionally, you'd be neglecting the fact that a significant proportion of the games community is 1) male, 2) white and 3) over 50.

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ORIGINAL: the1henson

The issue doesn’t appear to be pictures. It’s a sense of ownership. People who have spent literally decades on this community feel like it belongs to them. The reality, though, is that this is a business. The site is branded, and its content reflects on Matrix. They have not only the right, but the responsibility to monitor their brand’s image. For better or worse, this is what they chose.

It’s the difference between a bunch of guys talking in someone’s garage, and a bunch of guys talking in a fast food restaurant. If the discussion gets rowdy, in the garage it’s the guys who decide what’s acceptable. In the public forum, that choice isn’t theirs to make.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The collective effort that some on the forum are making to try and justify this is really quite something.

The issue is less the images per se, but the motivations behind posting them. It's certainly not historical appreciation.

This post-hoc attempt to dress up such content under the banner of "appreciating history" is a clear fabrication intended to blur the actual motivations.

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ORIGINAL: Ian R

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Additionally, you'd be neglecting the fact that a significant proportion of the games community is 1) male, 2) white and 3) over 50.

So, you are relying on gender, race, and age profiling?

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

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ORIGINAL: Ian R

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Additionally, you'd be neglecting the fact that a significant proportion of the games community is 1) male, 2) white and 3) over 50.

So, you are relying on gender, race, and age profiling?

Not at all, just basic social psychology. The demographics of the wargaming community are well known, and with that comes a set of associations with a whole range of factors, same as any other group that you'd care to define.

What we're seeing here is the power of normative social influence establishing a particular pattern of behaviour, and the resulting backlash when such a behaviour is challenged.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

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ORIGINAL: Ian R

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Additionally, you'd be neglecting the fact that a significant proportion of the games community is 1) male, 2) white and 3) over 50.

So, you are relying on gender, race, and age profiling?

Not at all, just basic social psychology. The demographics of the wargaming community are well known, and with that comes a set of associations with a whole range of factors, same as any other group that you'd care to define.

What we're seeing here is the power of normative social influence establishing a particular pattern of behaviour, and the resulting backlash when such a behaviour is challenged.

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ORIGINAL: mattj78

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

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ORIGINAL: Ian R

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Additionally, you'd be neglecting the fact that a significant proportion of the games community is 1) male, 2) white and 3) over 50.

So, you are relying on gender, race, and age profiling?

Not at all, just basic social psychology. The demographics of the wargaming community are well known, and with that comes a set of associations with a whole range of factors, same as any other group that you'd care to define.

What we're seeing here is the power of normative social influence establishing a particular pattern of behaviour, and the resulting backlash when such a behaviour is challenged.

maybe where you live that may be the case i live in sydney my local war gaming shop is anything but old and white and its a very good community

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

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ORIGINAL: Ian R

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Additionally, you'd be neglecting the fact that a significant proportion of the games community is 1) male, 2) white and 3) over 50.

So, you are relying on gender, race, and age profiling?

Not at all, just basic social psychology. The demographics of the wargaming community are well known, and with that comes a set of associations with a whole range of factors, same as any other group that you'd care to define.

What we're seeing here is the power of normative social influence establishing a particular pattern of behaviour, and the resulting backlash when such a behaviour is challenged.

You commentary is interesting when you make a comment that I have violated laws in certain parts of the world yet you offer no proof of such when I asked for it. I am calling on Edmon, Eric Rutin, and/or Iain McNeil publicly to ban you permanently for making such unsubstantiated claims and ignoring my request for such proof.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

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ORIGINAL: mattj78

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

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ORIGINAL: Ian R

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Additionally, you'd be neglecting the fact that a significant proportion of the games community is 1) male, 2) white and 3) over 50.

So, you are relying on gender, race, and age profiling?

Not at all, just basic social psychology. The demographics of the wargaming community are well known, and with that comes a set of associations with a whole range of factors, same as any other group that you'd care to define.

What we're seeing here is the power of normative social influence establishing a particular pattern of behaviour, and the resulting backlash when such a behaviour is challenged.

maybe where you live that may be the case i live in sydney my local war gaming shop is anything but old and white and its a very good community

Worth exploring some of the links in the article below:

https://analoggamestudies.org/2018/12/assessing-gender-and-racial-representation-in-top-rated-boardgamegeek-games/

Feel free to take umbrage with some of the wider findings, but the demographic section is not misaligned to my comments, in so far as the trend for older white males certainly holds firm.

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

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ORIGINAL: Ian R

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Additionally, you'd be neglecting the fact that a significant proportion of the games community is 1) male, 2) white and 3) over 50.

So, you are relying on gender, race, and age profiling?

Not at all, just basic social psychology. The demographics of the wargaming community are well known, and with that comes a set of associations with a whole range of factors, same as any other group that you'd care to define.

What we're seeing here is the power of normative social influence establishing a particular pattern of behaviour, and the resulting backlash when such a behaviour is challenged.

You commentary is interesting when you make a comment that I have violated laws in certain parts of the world yet you offer no proof of such when I asked for it. I am calling on Edmon, Eric Rutin, and/or Iain McNeil publicly to ban you permanently for making such unsubstantiated claims and ignoring my request for such proof.

To be frank, when the forum denizen with a known penchant for posting swastikas publicly calls for me to be banned, I'm taking that as an indication I'm doing something right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: actrade

Having read all of the posts regarding Matrix's new policy, there are a couple of things I'd like to point out. One, context matters. The picture posted of the fruit that looked exactly like a woman's vagina with a note "remind you of anything" is clearly meant to show a woman's vagina and inappropriate for a WWII game forum, I don't care if it's off topic or not. I certainly would not want my wife/daughter walking up behind me with that post there. Anyone who says different is hiding behind calls of censorship, which I adamantly oppose. Two, Matrix has decided to descend down a slippery slope that we see happening across the globe, where "fact checkers" decide what's true/untrue, but who checks the checkers? Three, back to my first point about context. Do historical-based nose art pictures belong in a WWII-based game? Of course they do, it's part of history. Do modern nose art pictures that would have been deemed pornographic in WWII belong...that I'm not so sure.

Rewriting history so it passes today's politically correct standards is simply wrong. How does one learn from history if one rewrites it? I think it is a mistake on Matrix's part to censor anything that can legitimately have come from history. For example, I use one of the swastika flag mods in WiTE2, not because I'm a Nazi or a sympathizer, but because I'm a history buff and it takes away from my immersion to see the Iron Cross flag. I understand it used to be illegal in Germany, but not anymore. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45142651

I would also point out that the hammer and sickle killed more people that the swastika did as both were run by sociopathic monsters, yet there's never any issue with that. Changing history is very, very dangerous as it allows those changing to also change or rewrite out the atrocities as well.


While I have no issue with Matrix trying to apply some standards, I would caution them that their customer base is largely history buffs like myself. I for one, am not interested in games that have "sanitized" to the point that they no longer represent historical facts and while pictures on women on planes may not be PC today, they were in fact history. I would ask that Matrix at least consider using a historical lense when deciding what is pornographic or objectifying women. I spent 6 years in the USAF as an Arabic translator and as one post noted, there are parts of this world where a women in shorts is pornographic so we need to be very careful when heading down this path.

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ORIGINAL: Nikel

IMO to consider a pin-up in a plane pornographic or the like is just insane, stupid political correctness.

Just go to any beach, anywhere any summer and you will see more "porn".

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ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Ok, a few points that go through my mind to go deep into the whole "depictions of women that are attractive to men are evil" thingy:

1. Sexuality is not inherently evil. It is as natural as eating, drinking, sleeping and all the other things animals do to sustain their species.

2. Pagan religions often celebrated sexuality but when the concept of churches was originated, those religions decided they needed to control their parishioners so they would spend more time worshipping. Keeping them at home procreating to make more parishioners was the end result. To do that, they needed to declare most forms of having fun as evil things (like "the demon rum").

3. The more you try to suppress human curiousity, the more humans will obsess on the subject. When I was a child sexuality and childbirth were hidden topics - we got the stork treatment. I knew nothing about sexuality except what I learned from older kids in the street - which was crude and objectifying to women. Ditto for the men's magazines we would sometimes get a peek at.

4. Hollywood and other types of media did a nudge-nudge wink-wink treatment of sex that told youngsters there was something interesting going on but it was a buried treasure they could not access.

5. Because of these influences, those of us born in the 50s did grow up with objectifying views of women because we rarely saw them depicted otherwise. Their lack of power enabled men to define what they could be and it was big news when a local woman became a doctor or politician.

6. Over succeeding generations to the present women have struggled to change the view of them to a more wholesome one - that they have minds that are as capable as mens' are, that they can be stellar athletes and performers, that they have a personality that must be reconned with if you want to befriend them and that they must juggle many roles to fit in the society we have.

7. And besides the accomplishments in point 6, they still want to be seen as attractive people. Biologically, men are wired to first assess physical attractiveness, so imagery/impressions are important. Evidence of women's interest in making themselves attractive:
(a) the cosmetics industry
(b) the fashion industry
(c) the diet industry
(d) to some extent the fitness industry

8. Women's own sexuality has only recently been acknowledged as "normal", but the things men learned to call sexually active women have carried on - and should be called out whenever they are used. I cringe when forumites use the term "that rhymes with witch", even if they are referring to unpleasant behaviour of a woman rather than her social life. This disparagement of women is what can be picked up by children and carried on into their adult life,

9. Today's children are learning a healthier way of looking at the role of women and how to relate to them as persons, not objects. That includes learning about their sexual biology and some of the sexuality that comes with it. It is no longer shocking to children to see a depiction of a women with breasts bared or kissing their partner in public. The cage of evil that religions built around women's sexuality is finally almost removed. But as evidenced in the censorship of pin-up art here, the old attitudes are still with us because that is what we learned when we were growing up.

10. We really ought to look to women to tell us what they find objectionable and what is objectifying. There will be a range of opinions from them, but I suspect they would allow enough to show the contours of their bodies without showing their private anatomy. That is what they do in public every day.

11. And a point on objectification - it happens to all of us. To the salesperson trying to make a deal you are a customer - an objectified wallet if you will. To the bus driver you are a rider - an object to be picked up and delivered (unless you are such a regular that the driver gets to know a bit about you over the years). Objectifying women as sexual beings is not totally wrong, it is just a very incomplete picture of who they are.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

To be frank, when the forum denizen with a known penchant for posting swastikas publicly calls for me to be banned, I'm taking that as an indication I'm doing something right.