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Italian Alpini divisions - 1/15/2022 4:00:12 PM

cameron88

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Everywhere i look i see them being listed and referred to having a strength of 15,000 to 17,600 men depending on the division, but ingame they have 9,000. Is the TOE incorrect, or was there attached units that brought these divisions up to that strength? If the latter is the case, they are not in the game in 1941 or 1942, because Italian support units have 500 men maximum, so it would be impossible to get anywhere close to the historical division size.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Italian_divisions_in_World_War_II

Through this link you can look at all the sizes of the Alpini divisions.

< Message edited by cameron88 -- 1/15/2022 4:03:17 PM >

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 8:50:46 AM

Flor1976

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Each division consisted of two Alpini regiments with three battalions each, one Alpine Artillery Regiment with three Artillery groups, one Mixed Engineer Battalion, one Logistic Battalion and some support units. The strength of each division was 573 officers and 16,887 NCOs and soldiers for a total strength of 17,460 men. Also each division had almost 5,000 mules and 500 vehicles of various types at its disposal.
The divisions saw combat in France, Africa, Italy, Albania, The Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Greece. One Alpini battalion was employed in East Africa. In 1942, Tridentina, Julia and Cuneense division were sent to fight in the Soviet Union. In Russia, instead of being deployed in the Caucasus mountains as expected, the Alpini were tasked with holding a front on the plains of the Don River. As a result of this disastrous strategic decision, troops armed, trained, and equipped for mountain warfare were pitted in the plains against tanks and mechanized infantry, to counter which they were neither equipped nor trained. Despite this, the Alpini held the front until January 1943, when, due to the collapse of the Axis front, they were encircled by the advancing Soviet Army. The Alpini were able to break the encirclement in Battle of Nikolayevka and fight their way towards the new line of the front established after the Axis retreat. Only about one third of the Tridentina division (4250 survivors of 15,000 troops deployed) and one tenth of the Julia (1,200/15,000) were able to survive this odyssey. The Cuneense division was annihilated

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 9:06:40 AM

cameron88

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Yes that is also what i read, so you would agree it's not correct that ingame the divisions only have a strength of 9000?

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 9:55:41 AM

Denniss

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if you cite from Wiki you should state that. Note that this statement at wiki is not sourced.

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 10:01:16 AM

cameron88

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What?

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 12:09:53 PM

Denniss

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we need verifyable sources, not just some text and numbers placed from unknown sources.
But I must admit that data about composition of italian WW2 units is likely rather thin than well researched/documented.
Plus there's almost always the paper strength/org vs real strength/org of units in the field as this tended to vary a lot.

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 12:37:31 PM

Elouda

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Niehorster gives Alpini Divisions 1940 OOB at 14786 men. The numbers of guns etc seem to line up well with WITE2.

The regular Infantry Division suffers from a similar issue, though here the guns arent quite as spot on, and listed strength is 12979 vs 7356 ingame. In the case of these, maybe the attached MVSN/CCNN Legion is not included?

I dont really know where the disparity comes from, possibly squad size or support size?

Also, looking through Italian units, theres a surprising lack of the 9mm MAB38 even in units that were 'early' adopters like the MVSN and Airborne units.

< Message edited by Elouda -- 1/16/2022 12:38:40 PM >

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 1:23:06 PM

DesertedFox

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I am not surprised cameron's extensive research stopped at Wiki. Actually surprised he got that far. It is up there with others quoting 20-year-old board games as a frame of reference.

Looking at some relevant sources, Osprey has figures around the 12 to 14,000 mark.

Whilst this link below has a source of around 7,000.

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/156th_Infantry_Division_Vicenza

Source saying.

quote:

Footnotes
↑ An Italian Infantry Division normally consisted of two Infantry Regiments (three Battalions each), an Artillery Regiment, a Mortar Battalion (two companies), an Anti Tank Company, a Blackshirt Legion of two Battalions was sometimes attached. Each Division had only about 7,000 men, The Infantry and Artillery Regiments contained 1,650 men, the Blackshirt Legion 1,200, each company 150 men.[2]
Citations
↑ Jump up to:1.0 1.1 Marcus Wendal. "Italian Army". Axis History. Archived from the original on 2009-05-13. Retrieved 2009-05-09.
↑ Paoletti, p 170

Take your pick.

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 1:30:00 PM

AlbertN

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Hope these helps - it is in Italian but at September '42 the divisional OOB was of over 17000 personnel.

https://www.alpini-cuneense.it/ordine_battaglia.htm

https://www.alpini-cuneense.it/quadrobattaglia.htm

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 1:30:28 PM

Teo41_ITA

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OOB of the 4th Cuneense Alpini Division (I am particularly attached to this one as my grandfather fought in the Saluzzo Battalion):

https://www.alpini-cuneense.it/ordine_battaglia.htm (It's all in Italian, use Google Chrome to translate it).

I could not find detailed OOB for the other 2 Divisions though.

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 1:31:06 PM

Teo41_ITA

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Please delete this one

< Message edited by Teo41_ITA -- 1/16/2022 1:34:01 PM >

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 1:36:11 PM

Great_Ajax

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The primary source that we used was Nafziger which does not include an accounting of the total number of personnel. He shows that an Alpini Division was composed of two infantry regiments, artillery regiment, a couple of anti-tank companies and a pioneer company. If this is correct, I find it very hard to believe that a 1942 Alpini Division would have 15-16k which is on par with a full strength German Infantry Division with three regiments, full reconnaissance battalion, anti-tank battalion, pioneer battalion and had significant motorization (in 41 at least).

Perhaps the Alpini divisions were at 15k when the war broke out but they did suffer serious losses in Albania and Greece as did the entire Italian Army. It would not be unreasonable that the Alpini Division were reorganized after these losses.

Detailed organization information on all of the countries are very hard to come by in English. I'm sure there are comprehensive sources in Italian but they are beyond my grasp. If anyone has some good information to with good sources, please come forward and share.

Trey

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 1:43:48 PM

Great_Ajax

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Interesting. The regimental strength is about double that of a German infantry division. I can only assume that all of that extra manpower is in support of the pack mules?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Teo41_ITA

OOB of the 4th Cuneense Alpini Division (I am particularly attached to this one as my grandfather fought in the Saluzzo Battalion):

https://www.alpini-cuneense.it/ordine_battaglia.htm (It's all in Italian, use Google Chrome to translate it).

I could not find detailed OOB for the other 2 Divisions though.

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 1:55:25 PM

Elouda

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I seem to recall the Alpini divisions sent to the east had slightly reinforced TOE compared to standard, possibly could be part of the issue? Though hard to see it leading to a 50%+ increase.

With regards to the Infantry divisions, its clear that they do not include the CCNN Legion in their OOB, which is probably an oversight and the cause of the disparity in their strength.

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 3:14:18 PM

Teo41_ITA

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It says that battalions of each regiment (Alpini + artillery) did have 5k men between NCOs and soldiers. In the "services" (I assume these include the logistics, field hospitals...) there were 55 officers and 1293 NCO and soldiers. No references to how many men were required to care for the mules and other animals.

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 5:55:38 PM

cameron88

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I don't know if you're this stupid or if you are simply trolling, but you posted an Italian security division, when the subject is clearly about Italian Alpini divisions, which are listed everywhere as having 15,000+ strength.

The reason for posting Wikipedia is as the basis for starting a discussion. I read through 5+ websites and OOBs and everyone supported Wikipedia's strength number for Alpini divisions, which is why i made this thread. But since you want to run your mouth, I'll post them here also since Wikipedia is not good enough alone, and you're too lazy to actually look anything up before commenting, or better yet prove Wikipedia's number wrong, which you can't.

https://www.alpini-cuneense.it/ordine_battaglia.htm < 17460+ men 1942 in Russia.

http://niehorster.org/019_italy/40_organ/div_alpini_40.htm < 14786+ men, 1940 organization.

https://www.ww2-weapons.com/italian-armed-forces-1942/ < 15219+ men, 1942 organization

https://wikimili.com/en/2nd_Alpine_Division_%22Tridentina%22 < 17,860+ men, 18,000 referenced in Jan 1943.

http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/40_organ/div_alpini_40.htm < "As of 10 June 1940, an Alpine division consisted of 14,786 men, with 24 75/13 guns, 78 mortars (54 45 mm and 24 81 mm) and 234 machine guns (68 heavy and 166 light). Men and vehicles were moved by 252 motor vehicles, 46 motorcycles, 5,327 quadrupeds, 225 wagons and 57 bicycles"

< Message edited by cameron88 -- 1/16/2022 6:03:19 PM >

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 6:25:59 PM

Zovs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cameron88

I don't know if you're this stupid or if you are simply trolling, �

But since you want to run your mouth, �

I don�t know (nor care) who your insults were aimed at, but they are totally inappropriate and against forum rules for personal attacks. Three of the posters here are from the dev team making your insults and abuse even worse.

< Message edited by Zovs -- 1/16/2022 6:31:01 PM >

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/16/2022 7:43:03 PM

cain012

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This might be helpful:

https://archive.org/details/TME30-420/page/66/mode/2up

Page 66 of the US Military Handbook on Italian Forces published in 1943. US Intelligence did get things wrong occasionally, but the figures for Alpine regiments seem to line up with the other sources putting the Alpini divisional manpower at quite high levels. Ostensibly, it is because mountain units were buffed with service and supporting arms personnel down to battalion level to facilitate independent operation away from the division. A single battalion is listed as having around 1,260 personnel, a single company 335, with 88 animals per company (so a substantial portion of the manpower is service personnel, to care for the animals).

Armament-wise it isn't that impressive compared to contemporary German formations, with 81 LMGs, 27 MMGs, 27 45mm mortars, 12 81mm mortars etc. But apparently pack artillery was attached to the regimental headquarters, leading each regiment to sit around 4,500 men when all was said and done. The Soviet Italian divisions (according to Wikipedia) had two alpine regiments, so figure on
-two regiments of 3800 men each,
-an artillery regiment of three battalions (the Handbook lists two as being average for the alpine artillery even though this does not comport with the official OOB) around 2600 total
-2 AA and 3 AT companies (2 of the latter attached to regiments and the remaining ones part of the art regiment) totalling around 500 additional men
-engineer battalion totaling around 700 men

And a few thousand extra troops accounting for the service companies, medical companies, caribinieri sections, and so on, you get pretty close to at least Niehorster's 14000 ballpark figure.

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/17/2022 1:10:36 AM

DesertedFox

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cameron88

I don't know if you're this stupid or if you are simply trolling, but you posted an Italian security division, when the subject is clearly about Italian Alpini divisions, which are listed everywhere as having 15,000+ strength.

What an imbecile.

The link I posted was a source listing many Italian Divisions. I just happen to choose that particular one after looking through them.

Of course, if your minuscule IQ would take the time to look through the website you would have discovered that.

Let's look at another on then, the 10th Infantry division.

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Infantry_divisions_of_Italy_in_World_War_II

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/10th_Infantry_Division_Piave

Order of battle
231. Avellino Infantry Regiment
232. Avellino Infantry Regiment
9. Artillery Regiment
IX Mortar Battaltion
XXVI Machine Gun Battalion
CDLXXIX Coastal Battalion
CXI Mixed Engineer Battalion
99. Motor Transport Section
60. Supply Section
80. Wagon Train Section [2][nb 1]
Notes
Footnotes
↑ An Italian Infantry Division normally consisted of two Infantry Regiments (three Battalions each), a Artillery Regiment, a Mortar Battalion (two companies), a Anti Tank Company, a Blackshirt Legion (Regiment of two Battalions). Each Division had only about 7,000 men, The Infantry and Artillery Regiments contained 1,650 men, the Blackshirt Legion 1,200, each company 150 men.[3]
Citations
↑ Jowett, pp 5-6
↑ Jump up to:2.0 2.1 Wendal, Marcus. "Italian Army". Axis History. Archived from the original on 2009-04-29. Retrieved 2009-04-13.
↑ Paoletti, p 170
Jowett, Philip S. (2000). The Italian Army 1940-45 (1): Europe 1940-1943. Osprey, Oxford - New York. ISBN 978-1-85532-864-8.
Paoletti, Ciro (2008). A Military History of Italy. Greenwood Publishing Group. ISBN 0-275-98505-9.

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/17/2022 2:58:20 AM

cameron88

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Yeah let's not take another look at an irrelevant infantry division that has nothing to do with the subject. Thanks for stopping by for the discussion DesertedFox, really appreciate your input as always, very helpful.

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/17/2022 3:39:40 AM

DesertedFox

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Nice to know you still can't see past the end of your nose.

Do you see any similarities between my reference and the Osprey reference?

Order of battle
231. Avellino Infantry Regiment
232. Avellino Infantry Regiment
9. Artillery Regiment
IX Mortar Battaltion
XXVI Machine Gun Battalion
CDLXXIX Coastal Battalion
CXI Mixed Engineer Battalion
99. Motor Transport Section
60. Supply Section
80. Wagon Train Section [2][nb 1]
Notes
Footnotes
↑ An Italian Infantry Division normally consisted of two Infantry Regiments (three Battalions each), a Artillery Regiment, a Mortar Battalion (two companies), a Anti Tank Company, a Blackshirt Legion (Regiment of two Battalions). Each Division had only about 7,000 men, The Infantry and Artillery Regiments contained 1,650 men, the Blackshirt Legion 1,200, each company 150 men.[3]
Citations
↑ Jowett, pp 5-6
↑ Jump up to:2.0 2.1 Wendal, Marcus. "Italian Army". Axis History. Archived from the original on 2009-04-29. Retrieved 2009-04-13.
↑ Paoletti, p 170
Jowett, Philip S. (2000). The Italian Army 1940-45 (1): Europe 1940-1943. Osprey, Oxford - New York. ISBN 978-1-85532-864-8.
Paoletti, Ciro (2008). A Military History of Italy. Greenwood Publishing Group. ISBN 0-275-98505-9.

The 5,400 mules might go a long way to explaining the difference in various sources as to the makeup of not only the alpine divs, but many Italian divs.

It could be inferred that 7,000 was the actual fighting troops number and anything above that support elements. I don't know the absolute answer to that with access to the reference above.

However, as you have a bug up your arse on this subject and refuse to look at or discuss the wider picture feel free to lobby the devs to add a further 7 to 9,000 support elements to the alpine divs, adding nothing to the CV but vastly increasing their supply usage.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/17/2022 3:59:51 AM

DesertedFox

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This might be a better reference than wiki (cough cough).

Pages 52 and 53.

https://archive.org/details/TME30-420/page/52/mode/2up

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/17/2022 6:49:36 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox

quote:

ORIGINAL: cameron88

I don't know if you're this stupid or if you are simply trolling, but you posted an Italian security division, when the subject is clearly about Italian Alpini divisions, which are listed everywhere as having 15,000+ strength.

What an imbecile.

...

really to both of you - keep it polite, neither of these posts are acceptable by the forum rules.

the debate is interesting, Trey has indicated a willingness to listen - and a suspicion that these formations have a long non-combat tail

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/17/2022 8:00:09 AM

EwaldvonKleist

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Nigel Askey's "operation barbarossa" is a good resource for such questions. Here is a photo of Vol1,p76. It confirms that Italian divisions as of 1941 were bigger than ingame.

The volume with detailed information on the Axis allies is work in progress.
https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/blog/

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< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 1/17/2022 8:02:36 AM >

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/17/2022 1:32:14 PM

AlbertN

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Quite sure Alpini troopers were caring of their own mules.

Plenty of pictures all around the place where the mules pratically march all along the soldierhood to ferry their equipment and where Alpinis guiding the mules are armed up and not exactly 'support' personnel.

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/17/2022 9:03:28 PM

Naughteous Maximus

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Hello all, I have decided to throw myself onto this fire

. I have a book, the Italian Army Order of Battle: 1940-1944 by W. Victor Madeja, and in it, it states that the Alpine divisions has a strength of between 10,500 to 13,000 soldiers, 228 light/heavy MG's, 24 medium howitzers (75/13), 78 mortars, 5,400 animals, and 50 trucks.

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/18/2022 5:57:35 PM

nikdav

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I think this is very interesting:
The German Gliederung for Julia Alpine Division during "Little Saturn " with the combat strength (nearly 11.000 men)without the service and rear area troops!
There is also the indipendent Elite Ski Battalion " Monte Cervino " (422 men)

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by nikdav -- 1/18/2022 6:00:28 PM >

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/18/2022 7:48:09 PM

thedoctorking

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Great conversation, just the sort of thing we should be debating in this forum.

Can we cool it with the personal attacks? You all seem to have useful and interesting things to say when you stick to the subject.

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/18/2022 11:04:25 PM

MechFO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nikdav

I think this is very interesting:
The German Gliederung for Julia Alpine Division during "Little Saturn " with the combat strength (nearly 11.000 men)without the service and rear area troops!
There is also the indipendent Elite Ski Battalion " Monte Cervino " (422 men)

This is very interesting. Do you have an exact date from when this is? Do you have any more? Mostly agrees with the Italian original source document from the Alpni Cuneense site above. Though the write up for the Italian source incorrectly gives every Battalion 12x81mm Mortars, the linked source shows only 12 per Regiment. The above is a strength report while the Italian document is an official TOE, however not necessarily useful for our purposes.

The strength report shows the Regiments seriously understrength, but it doesn't seem to have affected weapons TOE or combat performance, at least I can't remember it being mentioned that the Alpini were seriously understrength when the offensive kicked off. This might mean that the shown fielded strength has a lot of the extra support manpower already stripped out. Mules are very manpower intensive and inefficient and they might have transitioned away from them by this time. An Alpni Division needing 4900 animals is a lot compared to the much larger German Infantry Division "only" needing 5300.

It would be interesting to know if there are strenght reports from earlier to cross reference.

Either way the Alpini Battalions/Regiments were huge, comparative numbers for 1941 German Infantry would be 860/3000 at full strength, and very lightly equipped for the number of men fielded.

< Message edited by MechFO -- 1/18/2022 11:15:41 PM >

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RE: Italian Alpini divisions - 1/19/2022 2:44:29 AM

cameron88

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What has been collected so far by this all is that there is overwhelming evidence that the Alpini division was significantly larger then what is represented ingame, 9800 men ingame, while sources vary from 13,000 > 17,000 total men depending on 1940-1942 TOE for Alpini divisions.

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