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RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 11:40:09 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1



Come on Trugrit, you can't believe that to be true... can you?




Yes he can, and it is not your place to either:

(a) impose your opinion on him; nor

(b) gaslight him by using an insinuating tone that suggests there is something faulty in his mental processes if he believes that.

And yes, (b) is just what you did Warspite.

Edit: spelling.

< Message edited by Ian R -- 1/18/2022 11:44:52 AM >


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"I am Alfred"

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Post #: 181
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 11:53:16 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1



Come on Trugrit, you can't believe that to be true... can you?




Yes he can, and it is not your place to either:

(a) impose your opinion on him; nor

(b) gaslight him by using an insinuating tone that suggests there is something faulty in his mental processes if he believes that.

And yes, (b) is just what you did Warspite.

Edit: spelling.
warspite1

Funny, I thought it was a discussion. But I am glad you added the last sentence cos that defo confirms what I did right?

What a strange comment.....

Despite the nonsense you spouted, the simple fact is that when one sees what Trugrit suggested in black and white, I would hope he may re-consider. Now of course he may not and that is up to him.

So talk of 'imposing' and 'gaslighting' is simply more hysterial outpouring that sadly seems to be in generous supply of late.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 1/18/2022 12:13:38 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 182
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 12:18:01 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
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I like a bit of drama (being honest here as usual) but can ppl. try to put some effort into the quoting function????

You DO NOT need to quote the whole post and then 2 or 3 times even, you CAN delete all the stuff and quote only the part your response is meant for

Thanks (and my remark above should be made by a "mod" already - cause it is quite common here and makes the reading often difficult)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 183
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 12:20:19 PM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
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Well,

First of all Warspite what are you doing here?

I can’t remember you ever helping a new player with anything game related.
You don’t post explanations on game mechanics. You are never in the Tech section
trying to help a new player install or configure the game.

I can run a WITP-AE forum search on any game related topic I want and you don’t appear.
You have nothing game related to offer this game or forum.

You are like an ambulance chasing lawyer who shows up after the fact because
you think there is a profit for you in blood and gore.

You are only here because of controversy and the only reason is to stick your nose in it.
You are just here to troll people.

When you say come on Trugrit…...That is a troll.

Why would I answer any question you put to me? I just don’t care about you.


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 184
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 12:21:06 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
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From: Cammeraygal Country
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Despite the nonsense you spouted,


The irony here is palpable.

Sorry old man, but you rather walked right into that.

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"I am Alfred"

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 185
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 12:26:42 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Despite the nonsense you spouted,


The irony here is palpable.

Sorry old man, but you rather walked right into that.
warspite1

What do you mean? You spouted complete nonsense at me. By suggesting my response equates with Alfred's treatment of newbies is rather unfortunate. Good trolling though. Well done.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 186
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 12:29:42 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
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From: Cammeraygal Country
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[Edited in accordance with Alpha's request to pare down the quote:]

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

You spouted complete nonsense at me. By suggesting my response equates with Alfred's treatment of newbies ...






< Message edited by Ian R -- 1/18/2022 12:33:51 PM >


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"I am Alfred"

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Post #: 187
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 12:34:00 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


Well,

First of all Warspite what are you doing here?

I can’t remember you ever helping a new player with anything game related.
You don’t post explanations on game mechanics. You are never in the Tech section
trying to help a new player install or configure the game.

I can run a WITP-AE forum search on any game related topic I want and you don’t appear.
You have nothing game related to offer this game or forum.

You are like an ambulance chasing lawyer who shows up after the fact because
you think there is a profit for you in blood and gore.

You are only here because of controversy and the only reason is to stick your nose in it.
You are just here to troll people.

When you say come on Trugrit…...That is a troll.

Why would I answer any question you put to me? I just don’t care about you.


warspite1

Ah Trugrit, you sadly have a short memory. We have conversed on the forum a number of times in the past and we've always got along in the past.

I've been involved in this forum pretty much from the day I arrived at Matrix - I was involved in the write ups for the MWIF game and thought this would be a good place to come for help with US and Japanese ships in particular. And I got it too.

I've always been here for the history angle and indeed made an ill-fated attempt to learn the game a year or so back.

I am not here to troll or to cause trouble (quite the reverse) and I have as much right as anyone, including you, to be here.

But no problem. If you don't wish to answer any question that is entirely up to you. Your answer says more about you than it does about me.

Thank you for your time.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Trugrit)
Post #: 188
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 12:52:44 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
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From: United States
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Have the flames subsided yet, nope....back into my hole....lol

I have been playing war games since 1978, and if a newbie to war games came here and saw 7 pages (and counting) of the flame wars of community, moderation and Alfred they would be like WTF is this?

:D

You guyz are funny in a way and kind of sad in another way and I am right there with you, crazy.

They used to look at us as nutz cause we used to push little card board chits (we correct them of course and say they are counters) around this big mostly white maps with a bit of green and brown on them with some squiggly lines of blue and whomp and whoop when we rolled a 6 sided dice and proudly exclaim Defender Eliminated!

Now they think we are nutz cause we argue for days on end about digital infractions in our digital war games.

I think God will one day say you silly little boys...

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 189
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 1:06:38 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
it's their rules and they have decided to adopt them. You, like all of us, have a choice. Agree to abide by the forum rules or not. Entirely your choice.


Well in the PDF Erik posted there is no detail what is now (as a new rule?) allowed or not.
I cannot remember too I got some kind of PM from MG that their rules were updated

They need to provide details which kind of pics they still like or not, or better (imo) just say pics w/ any humans or body parts of them are forbidden now. This would solve the issue and it would be clear.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 190
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 1:15:12 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
it's their rules and they have decided to adopt them. You, like all of us, have a choice. Agree to abide by the forum rules or not. Entirely your choice.


Well in the PDF Erik posted there is no detail what is now (as a new rule?) allowed or not.
I cannot remember too I got some kind of PM from MG that their rules were updated

They need to provide details which kind of pics they still like or not, or better (imo) just say pics w/ any humans or body parts of them are forbidden now. This would solve the issue and it would be clear.

warspite1

Okay, so why don't you PM Erik or Edmon, as they requested, to ask this?

Personally, though I may be wrong, I think there is a degree of common sense here but I agree we all like certainty.

Example. Picture of Betty White posted earlier. In a thread to commemorate her service to country or an off topic about [what ever program she was in] then fine.

In a thread entitled Australian Beauties - which was essentially designed to be a celebration of female beauty (in all its forms), that would now be forbidden.

Why the difference? Don't ask me, I was born in a different time but my guess is that in the former there is context and in the latter it could be seen as objectifying. But as said, I don't always understand today's sensibilities, so you would need to seek clarification from Erik.




< Message edited by warspite1 -- 1/18/2022 1:16:56 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 191
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 1:22:05 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

I think God will one day say you silly little boys...
warspite1

Lol. I think that God says that to every moron that starts a war, so we will have plenty of company


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 192
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 1:34:19 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
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From: Cammeraygal Country
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Good Night Warspite.

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"I am Alfred"

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Post #: 193
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 2:01:53 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

Right off the bat, Alfred's tone was "look at this idiot." It was extremely offputting to be told this, when it was, in fact, not at all what I was doing:


So now you are putting an attitude to his tone. He was merely trying to help and in fact was giving good advice to make sure that the correct air unit went onto the preferred ship.

The "golden idol" and "forum golden boy" were also unnecessary name calling as well.

In fact, if you read from other posters, they were happy to receive the information given and not just from Alfred. That way, they did not have to ask the same questions themselves. What is a problem is when someone posts a question, did not like the answer given, then shortly afterwards will ask the same thing only it is slightly reworded. To me, it appears that you developed an attitude fairly quickly . . .



< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 1/18/2022 2:12:30 PM >


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 194
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 2:16:14 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Have the flames subsided yet, nope....back into my hole....lol

I have been playing war games since 1978, and if a newbie to war games came here and saw 7 pages (and counting) of the flame wars of community, moderation and Alfred they would be like WTF is this?

:D

You guyz are funny in a way and kind of sad in another way and I am right there with you, crazy.

They used to look at us as nutz cause we used to push little card board chits (we correct them of course and say they are counters) around this big mostly white maps with a bit of green and brown on them with some squiggly lines of blue and whomp and whoop when we rolled a 6 sided dice and proudly exclaim Defender Eliminated!

Now they think we are nutz cause we argue for days on end about digital infractions in our digital war games.

I think God will one day say you silly little boys...


DAT's right!

In fact, there was probably one group of individuals who would have told you when you did not like something or how something was done "Suck it up Buttercup!" or words to that affect. Then you might even have to do some upper body physical training for them!

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 195
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 2:57:11 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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From: Vermont, USA
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I'll be posting a new comprehensive post later today. Too much work to still get through to reply in more detail right now, but a few observations based on what's happened in this thread since I made my initial post...

Some folks have been saying that moderation and rules enforcement is the issue, but I think it's clear that the community was and remains divided with regard to Alfred and that would have been the case without any moderation. In fact, that division and the negative effect it was having on the community had lead to several forum members already leaving before any moderation action was taken. I'll set out the evidence I have on this later today so that those who still think that Alfred was just "brusque" can see what I saw when I decided to issue that ban.

There also appear to be more than a few forum members who see moderation actions to enforce rules as an attack on the community and consider locking threads as remarkably bad. I'm going to try to set that straight as well and provide the evidence as I see it as well as explain the purpose of enforcement and how we see the severity of each action.

I'll also be discussing the questions around the nuances of what the new rules mean. The Derby House Principles are principles rather than politics, though I understand how they can be taken politically. My first post in this thread addressed that head on.

No forum member, regardless of how long they've been here or their post count, is exempt from the forum rules. You all agreed to them as a condition of registering an account. No one other than Matrix Games "owns" this forum. I set out in my initial post what we'd like this forum to be and I think that's the kind of place just about all of us would be comfortable in. It's not going to be something other than that. Perhaps it has been at times something other than that, but it's now going to be what it should have been and I think that still encompasses 99% of what has been posted in this forum over the last ten years. The rest is for private messages or other forums.

More later today...

Regards,

- Erik




< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 1/18/2022 3:05:23 PM >


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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 196
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 3:09:33 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
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From: Cammeraygal Country
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

...




Looks like we're obsolete. See you in the life boat, Ranger Joe.

_____________________________

"I am Alfred"

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 197
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 3:13:20 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

...




Looks like we're obsolete. See you in the life boat, Ranger Joe.


Well, I won't need a life preserver - PHAT FLOATS!

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 198
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 3:23:07 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

...




Looks like we're obsolete. See you in the life boat, Ranger Joe.


Well, I won't need a life preserver - PHAT FLOATS!


Indeed - should be up and running soonish, I'll be in touch.

_____________________________

"I am Alfred"

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 199
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 3:28:42 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

...




Looks like we're obsolete. See you in the life boat, Ranger Joe.


Well, I won't need a life preserver - PHAT FLOATS!


Indeed - should be up and running soonish, I'll be in touch.


Sent you a Direct Message at another location.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 200
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 4:10:06 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

...




Looks like we're obsolete. See you in the life boat, Ranger Joe.


Well, I won't need a life preserver - PHAT FLOATS!


Indeed - should be up and running soonish, I'll be in touch.


Sent you a Direct Message at another location.


Scouts out, eyes up.

_____________________________

"I am Alfred"

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 201
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 4:14:50 PM   
Alpha77

 

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Here a bit more about the Derby crap:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=533379

Rex Brynnen said:

"Several of the largest organizations of professional wargamers (that is, those who run serious games on national security issues in government, think tanks, etc) have recent endorsed the Derby House Principles on diversity and inclusion in professional wargaming: link

These are not aimed at hobby gaming, but I thought they might be of interest in that they represent emerging best practice on the professional side."

He also says these "rules" were made by someone in UK MoD

I am guessing MG needs to enforce this as they are also in "professional" wargaming business:

https://pro.matrixgames.com

(scroll a bit down to find their partners)




< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 1/18/2022 4:16:59 PM >

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 202
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 4:25:39 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
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From: Cammeraygal Country
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Here a bit more about the Derby crap:



Gee Alpha, are you trying to self terminate? The tiger has growled, best not to poke it fair in the butthole.



_____________________________

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(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 203
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 4:34:03 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R
The tiger has growled, best not to poke it fair in the butthole.


Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My! - "The Wizard of Oz" (1939)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HrfbV16-FQ

(I am a lion and these are not afraid of Tigers )

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 204
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 4:46:28 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
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From: Cammeraygal Country
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You can no longer link videos like this on this site, they offend Derby House principles with respect to gender role socialization, the sexualisation of underage girls (such as Dorothy), and homophobic treatment of strawmen and heartless tinmen.

Please get with the new Matrix programme, or get out. Apparently it's a binary choice.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 205
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 4:47:37 PM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Here a bit more about the Derby crap:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=533379

Rex Brynnen said:

"Several of the largest organizations of professional wargamers (that is, those who run serious games on national security issues in government, think tanks, etc) have recent endorsed the Derby House Principles on diversity and inclusion in professional wargaming: link

These are not aimed at hobby gaming, but I thought they might be of interest in that they represent emerging best practice on the professional side."

He also says these "rules" were made by someone in UK MoD

I am guessing MG needs to enforce this as they are also in "professional" wargaming business:

https://pro.matrixgames.com

(scroll a bit down to find their partners)





The Derby Principles are not crap. They are a good set of principles that we all should follow.

They are political not by what is inclusive but what is left out (exclusive)

The Derby Principles say this:
“No one should ever feel excluded or less welcome because of gender, ethnicity, religion, disability, or background.”

Gender
ethnicity
religion
disability
background.

What is missing from this set of principles? I think the word would be creed.

https://www.rt.com/usa/474499-political-discrimination-colors-hiring-study/

Because gaming is not just about online forums and games.
Wargamers play in person or in clubs.

Creed would be easy to add to the Derby Principles.


(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 206
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 4:58:27 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

You can no longer link videos like this on this site, they offend Derby House principles with respect to gender role socialization, the sexualisation of underage girls (such as Dorothy), and homophobic treatment of strawmen and heartless tinmen.

Please get with the new Matrix programme, or get out. Apparently it's a binary choice.


Yes, Frances Gumm who left her hometown because her father was . . .

Let us just state that he would be in favor of those Derby House principles since he would be covered . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 207
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 5:03:36 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R
Please get with the new Matrix programme, or get out. Apparently it's a binary choice.


I want to get out then. I just looked where to completly delete my account but could not find it (?)

Was already unhappy about an earlier incident w/ Mr. Rutins where he seemed not very friendly or seems to value customers much. But they have now more "professional" customers

So to the Admin(s): Pls. delete my account totally incl. all personal data, thx


< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 1/18/2022 5:04:21 PM >

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 208
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 7:38:55 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Ok, I'm going to make a couple of things clear and then respond to the questions and points raised since my original post.

I've seen several additional violations of the forum rules, I'm sure quite deliberate, in this thread. For the time being as I did after Alfred was banned, I'll keep it open and let those who wish vent their spleens. Don't abuse the privilege. After that, this thread will be locked. Outside this thread, there is no "waiver". The forum rules are going to be enforced, with warnings and if those are ignored, bans will ensue.

Also, thank you all for the condolences on my father's passing. He is very much missed, he was a great dad and a very good man. I did the best I could to make his last years better.

With that said, on to the content of the discussion:

- For any Alfred-related discussions, please see the new thread I've created where I lay out my thoughts and some evidence regarding the one week ban.

quote:

However I do not like where our world is going, and only causes that melancholy of the past increases, I am the only one that misses the 80s?


No, you're not the only one!

quote:

I love this community more than you can imagine, there has been no day without i lurk into and rarely write, so i hope everyone who care this community could make a step toward the other without see in conflicting opinions an enemy but someone who try to make the site the best and the more inclusive he can.


I agree and feel the same way. What we would like is a place where all behave as gentlemen (or women) to create a forum that deals with the game, its history and any other related family friendly topics. I believe that 99% of posts here fall within our guidelines.

quote:

I will not continue participating in a forum infected by the cancerous scourge upon humanity known as feminism.


Well, not entirely sure what to do with this as it's clearly a political statement, but "feminism" can mean many things to many people. I'm going to assume it means something different to you than "equal opportunities and right in all areas for women" and "equal respect for women". That's what it means to me. With that said, I don't recall raising a banner for "feminism" but I believe as I think most here who have wives and/or daughters would, that the world should have the same opportunities for all sexes. In any case, if you feel otherwise, I agree you would not feel at home here.

On a somewhat related tangent, one thing I wanted to address was a comment Edmon made during the stream of discussions regarding our rules about the treatment of women in the 40s/50s. I think his statement came across a bit more absolute than intended and offended many. Bottom line I don't think it's something we as moderators need to be opining on and I've expressed that to him. In the spirit of this thread, I'll say that while many things have improved greatly since then as far as equality of the sexes, I think it's also fair to look at today's culture and say that in some ways, respect and proper behavior towards women has gotten worse.

quote:

1) Heavy handed moderation


I've explained the intended moderation style in the first post. Ironically, both Edmon and I fell afoul of the community in the same way, by acting without a warning/explanation. This is the Matrix Games forum and it is not owned by the community, but the community is the beating heart of it. It is worth noting that when I banned Alfred, I didn't think of a one week ban as overly heavy-handed. Neither did Edmon think that locking a thread was overly heavy handed. I know both came across as such, but hopefully with the explanation in the original post the community will understand what to expect from our rules and how they are enforced.

The deletion of threads should not have happened, but this is again normal in other communities as Edmon tried to explain. It's not what this community is used to, so it came as a shock, but it's standard practice in many other places. The rules I laid out in the original post are what I've asked Edmon to follow going forward. He will be helping out across all Matrix Forums and I will emphasize that he is a good guy who just hadn't been briefed on the common practices here, but he and I should be more in sync now. It's my responsibility, not his, that he didn't understand what the community here considers "normal moderation" vs. "heavy handed".


quote:

2) A lack clarity on the full extent of the "Decency Policy"


I tried to explain this more in my original post, but I know there are more questions. It reminds me of the old quote from the court case regarding pornography: "I'll know it when I see it". Unfortunately, some of this is a judgement call, but historical context means a lot and we take good faith into account and will act with common sense. No one is going to get a sudden ban without a warning or explanation if we think something does cross the line.

If you're posting it in order to titillate or sexualize something, you're going to be across that line. If there's a valid reason to share a picture of someone for historical or game context or because of current events, that should never be an issue. From what I have seen, it really should not be hard to understand the broad limits if you think about this as a club that everyone can enter, from kids including your daughters to your wife or mom, etc.

quote:

3) The hypocrisy of banning suggestive female images from the forums while using similar ones in Slitherine's game products.


I addressed this in my initial post. I think the focus on hypocrisy has been a bit too sharp and lacking in good faith. This is a work in progress and some of our older games may still have content we wouldn't put in now and some of the new games may not full get where we want to go either, but we're working on it. Specific to Master of Magic, I've said I'll be discussing that with the team.

quote:

I do have an issue with anyone doling out bans prior to issuing a warning as there is rarely a case that is completely clear cut. If after a warning we don't agree, as customers we can simply vote with our feet and walk away.


Agree and barring truly egregious circumstances, we'll try hard to avoid this going forward.

quote:

Next question would be on how many warnings do you get.


One warning for a given issue, that's it. There's no limit on warnings on separate issues, but if someone is really trying to push the rules, a pattern of behavior can result in a ban.

quote:

I have asked for clarification about my well-known sigpic showing the topless-but-censored "canoe girls" and was told to take it down - I have complied, albeit grudgingly. I have been using this sigpic since 2004, never got any complaints about it - on the contrary, it seemed to have been quite popular. I find it hard to understand that something that was ok for almost 18 years (!) is suddenly being considered as inappropriate. Apparently in our times "decency" is moving towards a more and more conservative interpretation, and in the case of "my girls" I ask myself if that "decency" thingy isn't being overdone and crossing a line towards prudery and somatophobia. I'll miss my sigpic, it had become part of my forum identity.


I understand and to a degree sympathize, but from what I recall from past years if it stayed it would be one heck of an exception to the family friendly rule. Perhaps you could find a new historical avatar that is also noteworthy and helps your posts stand out? After all, there are other historical LargeSlowTargets that would make for great avatars.

quote:

While I can't speak for Erik and Matrix, I would venture a guess that civility on the forums doesn't end with posting questionable photos. I believe they understand that to grow their business, they are trying to lay the groundwork for a more welcoming community, be it what's posted in text or in photos. Ultimately, they run a business and these forums exist here to promote and help sell their games, period. If we believe their are too heavy-handed in their moderation, we are free to head to reddit or other boards without much if any moderation. However, that only serves to further dilute our genre.


It's true and growing the hobby is objectively a good thing. Public forums should also be welcoming places. I hope most will stay around here for discussions related to the game and history and if they want other kinds of discussions, find another forum for those.

quote:

I agree. Although I do not know if matrix is concerned, or not, with the loss of many collective years of experience, with this game, from this forum. Perhaps their overall objectives are willing to bear that cost.


I don't want to lose any of our forum members, but we will be enforcing the forum rules going forward, neutrally and with reasonable warning and common sense.

quote:

None of us are perfect and Alfred is no exception. The fact that he was underappreciated does not absolve him of all responsibility. It is my sincere wish that he would come back to the forum and the lack of his presence is a detriment to all of us. However, Alfred also needs to be able to see where he was wrong and to be able to accept Erik's generous olive branch and accept the forum's rules. Civility is a precondition for all of us, no matter our knowledge.


Thank you, your summary is about how I see things as well. I regret that Alfred appears to have left the forum for good as he did have a lot to offer if he could remain civil and constructive.

quote:

There's the additional element that it was publicly stated that Alfred's ban was supposed to be one week, after which there would be a clean slate. Yet, no Alfred. It certainly doesn't engender a atmosphere of reflection and reconciliation when one thing is being said in public and something quite different being carried out in practice.


You have my word that a simple e-mail from Alfred stating he would follow the rules would restore his forum access. He also knows this is the case as I informed him myself after I reached out when his one week ban ended.

quote:

I also agree w/ RJ "feminsm" is only part of the problem, basically we are going to facism / comunism for some years already, this only got very bad in the last 2 years or so. Seems also a certain sickness is now used as kind of a cover for this. Cancel culture, suppression of "diverting opinions", political correctness, "fact checkers" that do not really have facts and most other "isms" are part/signs of this.


To be clear, that is not what's going on here. We are trying to make sure all of our public forums are family friendly and welcoming places. Political discussions have been against the rules for at least 15 years if not more, along with other divisive topics. The reason for that was always simple. We are here to focus on our shared interests, not on what divides us.

quote:

Can you even hear yourself? This has to be the most pompous, self righteous thing I have ever heard and goes straight to the root of the whole problem. I will give you one thing your loyalty to the so-named is astounding.


Ok, you're fortunate that I'm giving everyone in this thread a pass, but if you keep this up in replies to other posters you will get another ban.

quote:

"herd mentality" <snip>


Frankly, I have no idea what you are talking about here and the link didn't work for me. I'm sure there are things going on in the wider "pro wargaming" community that I know nothing about. What has bearing on us here are the principles that have been explained, which are not a matter of politics.

I'd appreciate a bit more good faith and benefit of the doubt directed our way if possible. I'm doing my best to extend that to all of those who think the worst of us as well.

As far as Matrix going downhill, I think we've published some excellent new wargames recently and our community numbers and sales have been increasingly steadily. We also have a number of exciting projects in the works and a new WITP-AE update coming for the first time in years. I think you are being overly pessimistic on a number of fronts.

quote:

Eric admitted that Alfred did not get a warning first which is part of the rules, then the ban would be in place. Since there was no warning prior to the ban, then the ban was in violation of the rules.
1. Warning for behavior
2. Ban if that certain specified behavior continues
3. Ban for longer periods of time if that specified behavior continues
That is the order which was supposed to have been followed but was not.


I've explained this several times, but just to be clear again, we always reserve the right to skip a step. I thought there was enough clear evidence to do so. I've explained my re-considerations in hindsight above.

quote:

I have found a lot of kind members within this forum that have aided me quite extensively in my pursuit of playing this game with some degree of competence. And many of our fellow forumites are posting very nice AARs that are a pleasure to follow. I wish to thank all of you that have contributed to making this a fun place for me to visit.

There have also been members less kind-hearted. They have given me the opportunity to practice forgiveness. And if I've had to practice too hard on my ability to forgive, I've found this excellent little green button at the bottom of a post. Humbly I would suggest (very-very humbly) that the green button is our friend. to my good fellows, I say let no fellow gamer get your goat. I've hidden my goat. You might consider the same.


By and large, it's a great community and I hope we can keep it that way. I agree that forgiveness and using the green button when needed are good habits.

quote:

I don't know either, but I doubt it's possible to spell it out exactly. I'm just hoping for "reasonable".


Yes, that post about Betty is clearly just fine and I wish she was still with us. As I explained above, common sense applies. Once you consider it equivalent to a space where kids, daughters and wives will be coming and going, like the main room of a local game store, I think you get the idea and understand what we're aiming for.

Finally, I want to emphasize that Edmon is not a "stranger from a strange land". He is an official moderator and while he is relatively new compared to me, he has my support and he'll have more guidance from me going forward. You'll see him and me around here more often and we'll be moderating as explained in the original post. You can discuss and debate any decisions we make, but please keep it civil and extend some benefit of the doubt. Edmon was acting within our forum rules as well as the community moderating standards he was used to and frankly he's done more moderating in much worse communities than probably any of us have. I firmly believe that if you extend some benefit of the doubt, you will find that he is a fair and patient moderator.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 1/18/2022 7:48:38 PM >


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 209
RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. - 1/18/2022 7:58:32 PM   
actrade

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


Well,

First of all Warspite what are you doing here?

I can’t remember you ever helping a new player with anything game related.
You don’t post explanations on game mechanics. You are never in the Tech section
trying to help a new player install or configure the game.

I can run a WITP-AE forum search on any game related topic I want and you don’t appear.
You have nothing game related to offer this game or forum.

You are like an ambulance chasing lawyer who shows up after the fact because
you think there is a profit for you in blood and gore.

You are only here because of controversy and the only reason is to stick your nose in it.
You are just here to troll people.

When you say come on Trugrit…...That is a troll.

Why would I answer any question you put to me? I just don’t care about you.




I don't have the "hashmarks" to comment on who posts what, but I will single out Trugrit for the single best post (IMHO) for new players on this forum.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4916799

I have this one bookmarked on my browser and refer to it more often than I want to admit. THIS, gentlemen, is the example we should all follow in welcoming and helping new players to this wonderful, albeit somewhat difficult undertaking the game can be just to set up.


(in reply to Trugrit)
Post #: 210
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