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RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics

 
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RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 1/19/2022 3:05:03 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Howdy! I've been back to this game after a few years' hiatus, and I have alot of questions on optimal use of Submarines, and the IJN Subs in particular. I would love some tactical and strategic advice from the veterans here!

I wouldn't mind a thread as Allies, though I think Allied tactics in some ways are easier; while Japan has the advantage of interior lines, it does make it easy to predict Japanese shipping lanes since there are obvious choke points around the Empire. It's much more difficult to predict Allied shipping lanes, particularly if you have an Allied opponent who micromanages ship paths.

So, overall I have a number of questions, in no particular order, on several topics. What say you?

What are the optimal patrol settings to encounter enemy ships? REMAIN on station (in a choice spot), PATROL in one hex (one-hex setting with 1 react), or a PATROL setting over a larger area?

What are the Optimal settings and use of the FLOATPLANE boats?

How do you use the various IJN types? Broadly, the IJN has Large Cruiser Subs, Floatplane Subs, Attack Subs (fast with alot of tubes), and the coastal RO-boats (shorter range, smaller torpedos)

What is your strategy on Submarine builds? My observation is that they tend to be expensive in NSY for the return, especially when 2 submarines = 1 UNRYU-class CV in terms of NSY, which is alot. What types do you build and not build?



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RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 1/19/2022 3:22:30 PM   
Platoonist


Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
Status: offline 		Pretty much all of my experience with IJN submarines came against the Allied AI which is notorious for running its convoys in poorly protected penny packets willy-nilly all over the map. Just having a sub in the general area of USA-Australia seemed to generate a fair number of kills, especially with torpedoes that actually functioned as advertised.

So, stay out of shallow water is the only tactic I can advise.

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RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 1/19/2022 3:38:55 PM   
WEXF

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 9/7/2020
Status: offline 		I am no expert but in my thinking "remain on station" is not the way to go. I prefer to use a patrol zone of 2 hexes as that allows more time in a key location. The use of a 1 hex patrol zone makes sense if you have a key choke point that you want to protect.
I would think the best use of the sub-float planes would be to improve the detection level of the submarines targets as the subs try to find and destroy the enemy. A secondary mission could well be to recon areas on the west coast or deep in allied territory to force the allies to allocate a higher percentage of their air assets to where they are spotting the float planes.
Of course try to remain in deep water.
WEXF

(in reply to Platoonist)
Post #: 3
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 1/19/2022 3:44:46 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline 		Q-Ball,

IJN subs are generally well captained with excellent torpedoes, but are typically big and don't get tech upgrades. They are obsolescent in 43 and obsolete in 44. I generally don't build any submarines after 42. Though some players make extensive use of IJN subs as SSTs in the later war, I just use what is left.

I organize the long range boats around a Glen equipped flagship and set the wolfpack down along the convoy routes: Seattle to PH, SF to PH, LA to SOPAC, Aden/Abadan to Karachi and Cape Town to Darwin. The flagship must be in front of the wolfpack to DL the enemy. Once a convoy is scouted by a Glen, they will usually change course if given the option with a new turn order, so I try and organize 3:1, allowing one sub of the wolfpack to either side and one along the direct route.

The shorter range boats and the RO boats lurk along the coasts of India and the key SOPAC bases in range. I keep the patrol location no greater than 25% of endurance to avoid wasting too much time in transit. Where possible, operate these boats within your nav search range of patrol aircraft.

Keep them always moving. I set the patrol hexes as far apart as the sub's cruise movement in a single 12 hour phase.


(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 4
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 1/19/2022 4:01:53 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Some people have used them with some success against enemy naval vessels. The key is to mob the enemy with subs. If you are on the offensive and can predict where the enemy is coming from or may come from, then a few groups of subs strategically placed can be moved into the projected paths. After any battle, or just prior to a battle, the subs should be repositioned if needed to sink cripples as they attempt to return to a safe harbor.

Again, pair them up with naval search from land or sea. Also use the subs with float planes for this including at night.

You can also use subs as "life guards" like the USN did to recover aircrew.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Wirraway_Ace)
Post #: 5
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 1/19/2022 4:08:08 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


What are the optimal patrol settings to encounter enemy ships? REMAIN on station (in a choice spot), PATROL in one hex (one-hex setting with 1 react), or a PATROL setting over a larger area?

Patrol between 2 or three hexes, 2-3 hexes apart
quote:



What are the Optimal settings and use of the FLOATPLANE boats?

I use day search, 60%, range 4. The game engine treats nav search within 4 hexes as a single zone, so no need to set radii.




(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 6
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 1/19/2022 4:29:36 PM   
the1henson

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 12/6/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace


The game engine treats nav search within 4 hexes as a single zone, so no need to set radii.





That’s new to me. Good information. Does this also apply to ASW?

(in reply to Wirraway_Ace)
Post #: 7
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 1/19/2022 4:32:40 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: the1henson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace


The game engine treats nav search within 4 hexes as a single zone, so no need to set radii.





That’s new to me. Good information. Does this also apply to ASW?

How the engine handles the 1/2 range of ASW is a mystery to me, I am afraid.

(in reply to the1henson)
Post #: 8
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 1/19/2022 4:33:49 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		Amazing thread title.

I use remain on station if, for some reason, I want a submarine to act as an air search detection picket. Not an ironclad method, but it's something.

I use patrol if I want it to attack something. I prefer to either take minimum oversight of this by using patrol area (if I'm casting a wide net) or extreme control, setting narrow and specific zones. If there is expected aerial ASW, I use the loiter option for 1 day at a location that should be out of range of aerial detection.

1-hex react is always set, but I suspect does not apply in the first case for remain on station.


This applies whether floatplane boats or not, however those with floatplanes get an aircraft in reserve, 80% search (with no arcs set), and I try to use them in places where their detection of convoys will be a mental nuisance at a minimum or provide me with intel on movements, while not losing the float plans to CAP. They are useful for hunting in the early war, and useful for early warning pickets in the late war.

I don't build any RO- boats from the pool. I do build the decent-size I-boats, even late into the war, for their picket capabilities (if I need them to replace losses).

If I were doing it again, I would pass on building the I-400s because I don't think they actually end up being able to launch strikes because they have zero sorties, which is annoying.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 9
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 1/19/2022 4:52:58 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline 		I think I read somewhere that the game checks for detection when moving into a hex. If this is the case, then having the sub move would increase chances of finding a target. Staying in the same spot will increase the chances of ASW finding you. I have not played IJN but with such a large open area that can be transited to Pearl/Australia/NZ, trying to get an open ocean intercept seems difficult. But trying to patrol closer to the ports will be problematic with ASW patrol planes. The Glen equipped subs might make the mid-ocean intercept easier, I don't know.

Given the vast carpet of xAKs that the allies get, can the IJN sub force sink enough on it's own to make it worth anything? I do not know about Japanese fuel situation for their industry. Would the fuel expended by the subs make a difference to industrial output?

Sub spam of battle areas does seem a good idea when on the offensive. And I've bagged some capital ships that were crippled and heading back to Japan for repair recently {1944 as allies}. And I lost a BB to a sub post Pearl Harbor on it's way to the west coast.

(in reply to Wirraway_Ace)
Post #: 10
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 1/19/2022 5:17:53 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

Q-Ball,

IJN subs are generally well captained with excellent torpedoes, but are typically big and don't get tech upgrades. They are obsolescent in 43 and obsolete in 44. I generally don't build any submarines after 42. Though some players make extensive use of IJN subs as SSTs in the later war, I just use what is left.

I organize the long range boats around a Glen equipped flagship and set the wolfpack down along the convoy routes: Seattle to PH, SF to PH, LA to SOPAC, Aden/Abadan to Karachi and Cape Town to Darwin. The flagship must be in front of the wolfpack to DL the enemy. Once a convoy is scouted by a Glen, they will usually change course if given the option with a new turn order, so I try and organize 3:1, allowing one sub of the wolfpack to either side and one along the direct route.

The shorter range boats and the RO boats lurk along the coasts of India and the key SOPAC bases in range. I keep the patrol location no greater than 25% of endurance to avoid wasting too much time in transit. Where possible, operate these boats within your nav search range of patrol aircraft.

Keep them always moving. I set the patrol hexes as far apart as the sub's cruise movement in a single 12 hour phase.




Good thoughts many of you, can't copy everyone's post but this aligns with my thiking.

On builds, it didn't seem worth it to build anything past 1942 either, particularly anything that would take resources away from CV, DD, more valuable ships

On PATROL ZONES, I've always used tight zones though; concerned about FUEL BURN. With larger patrol zones doesn't that burn too much fuel too fast?

It definitely makes sense to FLOOD THE ZONE around major fleet actions, either offense or defense.

Keep the thoughts coming!

Also another Question: Has anyone gotten results from MIDGETS past Dec 7th? Seems like a waste of VPs, but want to see what others think. Have thought of deploying a couple for basically BASE DEFENSE.

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Post #: 11
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 1/19/2022 5:50:42 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Also another Question: Has anyone gotten results from MIDGETS past Dec 7th? Seems like a waste of VPs, but want to see what others think. Have thought of deploying a couple for basically BASE DEFENSE.


Offensively, only ever got one hit on PoW in Sydney once in late '42. That was it. Didn't try to much so may be reflective of that.

Plenty of luck with them on the defence. Worth throwing them in to base hexes in 1944 and 1945 that are likely to get bombarded or invaded. Got lucky a few times with them hitting a CVE or a BB, and even if they hit nothing they're still a nuisance for the invasion force.

On the VP front, consider how many midgets you can trade for a CVE (or even a big xAK) and still come out reasonably ahead.

quote:

On builds, it didn't seem worth it to build anything past 1942 either, particularly anything that would take resources away from CV, DD, more valuable ships


Disagree here, build the lot. Don't bother with the transport subs, except the class that can convert to proper subs and carry a Kaiten.

Given how asymmetrical the naval war will be come 1944 and 1945, you need the lot to help bolster what ever remains of the IJN. When you reach your line in the sand and it's time to throw the kitchen sink at the Allies, you'll need all those subs to swarm, en-masse, into the battlezone in the hope that they'll help you turn the tide.

They likely won't, but a lucky sub attack or two on CVE's helps a little in balancing the odds.

The other element is that subs will give you at least some presence at sea. Not investing in them sufficiently will leave the Allies effectively free to operate as they will beyond the range of air power.

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 1/19/2022 5:51:31 PM >

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Post #: 12
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 1/19/2022 6:11:06 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

Also another Question: Has anyone gotten results from MIDGETS past Dec 7th? Seems like a waste of VPs, but want to see what others think. Have thought of deploying a couple for basically BASE DEFENSE.


Yes, I have. Although it was in the open ocean against the computer, a player can drop them off and have them "patrol" that one hex while their carrier sub patrols nearby.

I have seen others as well in their AARs when they were on defense but the problem there is that the ASW is rather high.

I wish that subs weren't so expensive to build in the game since they actually weren't that expensive. I have found a solution to that if I were to edit a scenario . . .

Also as far as building ships, the dates for the Yamato and the Musashi are actually later than in the real war . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 13
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 1/19/2022 6:39:34 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		As the Japanese, anything that has torpedoes is valuable.. I tend to build them but not with the highest priority...

With regard to logistics:

- Allied have limitless cargo ships, infinite supply
- The only slightly vulnerable component of the merchant fleet are tankers
- You do not have sufficient submarines to really impact the allies in this area - you could be annoying if only to ensure some allied resources are used hunting them... And hope for the occasional prime target (AKVs, AEs, APAs, Oilers)

With regard to winning battles:

- If your torpedoes are hitting carriers, battleships or OILERS -> now that is something else
- If you can dictate where the fight is going to be then you can concentrate them
- If you can not dictate where the fight is going to be (later years) it will be harder to concentrate -> but hunting merchants will have become pointless and outright suicidal at this point so you could concentrate two or three groupings... and keep them in reserve to support the main fleet actions...

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RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 2/14/2022 1:53:47 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Also another Question: Has anyone gotten results from MIDGETS past Dec 7th? Seems like a waste of VPs, but want to see what others think. Have thought of deploying a couple for basically BASE DEFENSE.


Rarely for me, but they do strike on occasion. I have found that they do better if the mother ship moves to a point 1 hex away from the target hex and releases the midget sub, who then moves into the hex. If the midget survives, then she move back to the mother ship to head back to port to rearm/repair damage.

The other use (more common) is to base them at friendly ports as an additional line of defense. If they fire their torpedoes and can't rearm there or move to a base where they can rearm, I'll disband them so they can be created somewhere else.

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Post #: 15
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 2/14/2022 2:00:12 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		A few other comments...

I like to put some subs in the Allied SLOCs. Early in the war there is a definite shortage of escorts, so most of the cargo convoys have none. Sure, you usually sink empty or supply carrying xAKs, but sometimes you get lucky and sink one that is carrying planes. That is always fun to see.

I build out most of the subs, like mind_messing. Every Japanese weapon has a use. You just need to find it.

Whenever KB is on a mission, I allocate 6-8 subs to get in front of them. Their task is two-fold. First, they are an early warning screen and second, they go after cripples.

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RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 2/14/2022 2:57:12 PM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1127
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline 		After '43 I try to use the IJN subs mainly for mine-laying. I find laying mines in newly captured or secondary bases where no mine-sweepers is effective.

I agree with the comments on using Japanese minis in a defensive base-hosted role. I have hit a number of incoming bombardment TFs this way. If damaged or outa ammo just disband to pool. I'm sure having a good commander is important.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 17
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 2/14/2022 6:44:50 PM   
Moltrey


Posts: 297
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

After '43 I try to use the IJN subs mainly for mine-laying. I find laying mines in newly captured or secondary bases where no mine-sweepers is effective.

I agree with the comments on using Japanese minis in a defensive base-hosted role. I have hit a number of incoming bombardment TFs this way. If damaged or outa ammo just disband to pool. I'm sure having a good commander is important.


Guys, question on mine-laying. My limited experience is Allied first two months of the war, so I see stocks of mines disappear rapidly for the Dutch. Wondering if the US, Australia, Britain and Japan have more stocks in general? Or do you tend to run out if you pursue a concentrated mine-laying strategy?
Call me curious.

(in reply to pontiouspilot)
Post #: 18
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 2/14/2022 8:23:39 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline 		Mines are extremely limited in AE. There was no limit in WITP. This led to 1000s of mines in one place. I read some one calling the game Mines in the Pacific. The pools for mines are much better along with all the other improvements that came with AE.

< Message edited by rockmedic109 -- 2/14/2022 8:27:03 PM >

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Post #: 19
RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 2/14/2022 8:23:44 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

Guys, question on mine-laying. My limited experience is Allied first two months of the war, so I see stocks of mines disappear rapidly for the Dutch. Wondering if the US, Australia, Britain and Japan have more stocks in general? Or do you tend to run out if you pursue a concentrated mine-laying strategy?
Call me curious.


All mine types are limited, and the VHII or whetever that Dutch mine is, that one in particular you can run out early (particularly since the Dutch get quite a few minelayers). This is normal. You just have to ration your mines and use them carefully, because there aren't enough to really go around.

Those that played the game before 2010 may recall that there were no mine pools initially....they were unlimited. Some players starting laying mines every turn, all the time, everywhere...."Mines in the Pacific". All bases would have 100s, many would have 1000s. Thankfully the pools were implemented to put a break on that.....


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RE: RO, RO, RO your boat: Imperial Submarine Tactics - 2/14/2022 8:24:41 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey


quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

After '43 I try to use the IJN subs mainly for mine-laying. I find laying mines in newly captured or secondary bases where no mine-sweepers is effective.

I agree with the comments on using Japanese minis in a defensive base-hosted role. I have hit a number of incoming bombardment TFs this way. If damaged or outa ammo just disband to pool. I'm sure having a good commander is important.


Guys, question on mine-laying. My limited experience is Allied first two months of the war, so I see stocks of mines disappear rapidly for the Dutch. Wondering if the US, Australia, Britain and Japan have more stocks in general? Or do you tend to run out if you pursue a concentrated mine-laying strategy?
Call me curious.

All mine production is miniscule. In play testing the developers saw that too many mines made the game tedious - much favouring defence rather than offence. They wanted to avoid the game being called "Mines in the Pacific".
I used the 100 mines CM Oglala starts the game with, and six weeks later she only has 31 from new production. My DMs are doing odd jobs for lack of any stocks.

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