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COIN Scenario from the VC viewpoint

 
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COIN Scenario from the VC viewpoint - 2/1/2022 7:09:52 PM   
Jason Petho


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There was an interesting comment at the tally-ho review:

quote:

I’ve mentioned this a couple of times on other posts, but I really wish someone would do a PC-game take on COIN at the operational level. No knock on CS, but a lot of Vietnam War games seem to me to focus on the tactical battles side, when that alone doesn’t really account for why insurgencies triumph or fail. It feels apiece with the same tunnel-vision that prioritised kill ratios and body counts as a proxy for ‘success’.


And I'll ask the same question here as I am curious about feedback:

If I could make a scenario that takes on COIN at the operational level, what would that look like to you? I’d be happy to give it a shot, just looking for some guidance.

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RE: COIN Scenario from the VC viewpoint - 2/1/2022 7:22:52 PM   
theWombat

 

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I'm not sure you could do it justice at the scale and with the engine of this game. This game is good at what it does, and it's not trying to simulate the whole sordid mess that was the decades of colonial warfare in Southeast Asia. Its focus is tactical combat, where whether or not the overall campaign much less the war was winnable didn't matter to the people at the pointy end. I think that trying to push this engine to simulate anything more is a recipe for frustration at best, disaster at worst. Too many political, cultural, economic, etc. factors come into play with counter-insurgency operations IMO to do it here. You need a bespoke system/engine I think.

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RE: COIN Scenario from the VC viewpoint - 2/1/2022 7:24:03 PM   
Jason Petho


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Thanks for the feedback! That's good to know indeed.

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RE: COIN Scenario from the VC viewpoint - 2/1/2022 7:53:22 PM   
dox44

 

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look like Fire in the Lake to me...and its just about 3' from me.

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RE: COIN Scenario from the VC viewpoint - 2/2/2022 6:32:06 AM   
comte


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I wish someone could basically make a computer version of Victory games Vietnam (gmt is doing a modern reprint). This is not a knock on you guys this game is fantastic but for an operational game if someone copied that formula onto PC I would have all the Vietnam games I need. Also I know there is a TOAW scenario that tries to simulate that game but TOAW is not great.

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But when Territories are acquired in regions where there are differences in language, customs, and laws then great good fortune and much hard work are required to hold them.

-Machiavelli, Il Principe, Book III-

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RE: COIN Scenario from the VC viewpoint - 2/16/2022 9:44:47 PM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

At the risk of seriously overstepping my amateur knowledge, I’ve given the question some thought. I didn’t want to be the kind of poster who just criticizes without offering any solutions!

I’d love to try a COIN wargame that:

1. Featured modeling of the human element on the ‘ground’. Named village elders / local commanders with mechanics governing influence, initiative, popularity etc. Dilemmas about whether to back an unpopular but loyal local leader vs a charismatic wild-card as likely to funnel money to the insurgents

2. Firepower asymmetry. COIN forces usually have major advantages over insurgents, outside of ambushes (perhaps a special insurgent Op?) but this ties to

3. Reliance on various forms of intelligence. Human intel, recon ops, captured informants, without which insurgent main bases can’t be targeted.

4. Mechanics to incentivize ‘presence’ ops, checkpoints, provincial offices, ‘post-kilometric’ outposts (like the French PK system) in order to build local influence, which in turn provides…

5. Targets for insurgents to hit and fired COIN forces to defend

6. Supply system: logistics networks for COIN forces (vulnerable to ambush), and local plus overland / river supply for insurgents (vulnerable to disruption, or the New Model Hamlet approach in Vietnam / Malaya)

7. COIN forces constrained by political considerations. The war won or lost based on a combination of local and domestic political support, rather than (just) destruction of enemy capabilities

The question mark for me would be how far a developer would want to go in representing the messiness of reprisals and ‘police action’. Events not rising to the level of outright atrocities like My Lai, but ‘sanctioned’ forms of brutality. Villages demolished or moved as punishment for an ambush, police sweeps picking up local citizens, insurgent terror ops, assassinations.

I imagine the Vietnam War especially would be a huge undertaking because of how it also merges big-unit warfare (especially in the French period / post ‘73)


From another forum, posting it here to keep a record and give me ideas.

Muhahahahaha

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RE: COIN Scenario from the VC viewpoint - 2/17/2022 9:04:27 AM   
devoncop


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I love all of those ideas.

To which I would add, if the personalities are included then this should also apply to the pro allies govrrnment commanders...The habit of President Thieu of appointing Corps and Divisional commanders based on their perceived loyalty rather than the slightest indication of ability was apparently a huge handicap to ARVN efficiency.



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RE: COIN Scenario from the VC viewpoint - 2/17/2022 2:49:07 PM   
Jason Petho


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Most of those points can be implemented with some form of lua scripting. The main issue would be that a lot them would require a lot of turns. A Month in.... Ha!

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RE: COIN Scenario from the VC viewpoint - 2/18/2022 7:44:37 PM   
Twotribes


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The REALITY of the Vietnam war is that after the TET offensive in 68 there was no insurgency in South Vietnam. The supposed VC were all North Vietnamese troops smuggled into South Vietnam. The South never fell to an insurgency it fell because 25 North Vietnamese Divisions invaded it.

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RE: COIN Scenario from the VC viewpoint - 2/18/2022 7:56:08 PM   
Jason Petho


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Most definitely and that's where are a number of the most interesting battles happened, the conventional fighting between 1972-1975

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RE: COIN Scenario from the VC viewpoint - 2/18/2022 10:25:44 PM   
Umbra_TSSI


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Hey, Jason.

The book Paths to Victory: Detailed Insurgency Case Studies looks to be an excellent resource on what you're interested in. It gives 41 case studies, one of them being the Vietnam War, on how/why COIN failed or prevailed.

This is a link to the Vietnam War case study from the book, it's a PDF. In it is a link to the entire book, individual chapters and sections can be downloaded from there.

Vietnam War case study link: https://www.mediafire.com/file/f86ygplu2komx1z/South_Vietnam_COIN_Loss.pdf/file

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RE: COIN Scenario from the VC viewpoint - 2/21/2022 12:50:34 AM   
gregb41352

 

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If you could make a pc game of GMT's "Fire in the Lake" you'd have
the most incredible Vietnam sim of all time. And I could die happy.

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RE: COIN Scenario from the VC viewpoint - 2/21/2022 12:56:33 AM   
gregb41352

 

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"I wish someone could basically make a computer version of Victory games Vietnam (gmt is doing a modern reprint)."

There's a pretty good Vietnam scenario for The Operational Art of War IV. It comes with a guide that explains
most of the operations of the war. If you can't find it let me know. It's around somewhere.

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RE: COIN Scenario from the VC viewpoint - 2/21/2022 2:50:38 AM   
Rosseau

 

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If you're thinking of "Vietnam Combat Operations - Volume 1 1965" et. al, that set of scenarios is one crazy labor of love. Sort of like this game!

< Message edited by Rosseau -- 2/21/2022 2:53:55 AM >

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