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Victory screen and other information? - 2/2/2022 9:44:22 AM

Jorgen_CAB

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If possible, would it be possible to have an option that obfuscate the numbers on the Victory screen so I only know the accomplishment of empires depending on diplomatic ties. I really don't want to know exactly how strong other empires are, I feel these numbers are too easy to game and is way too powerful to base your decisions on.

I would rather that we used our spies and that mechanic to gain important information, or able to gain economic information from trade and other diplomatic treaties.

If I have a Boskaran empire just beside me that simply refuse every treaty and keep me out of their economy I should know little to nothing about it. It should remain a mystery... perhaps not even know their progression of their victory at all unless I send some spies to find out.

In my opinion this information is too valuable to be totally free in a game of this scope, at least I would like it to be an option to have it obfuscated based on treaties or spying. Information is very powerful...

I don't expect any of this for release, but perhaps for the future it could at least be considered.

< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 2/2/2022 9:50:37 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Victory screen and other information? - 2/2/2022 10:08:49 AM

Galaxy227

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To me the victory screen is like the game editor�only use the thing if you're willing to break the immersion brought about by not knowing. I'd rather be able to see exactly how close other empires are to victory than not. Players need to know how much longer games could potentially last, or how far ahead (or behind!) they are from everyone else. Also, the victory screen is already an arbitrary part of the game anyway, as it has nothing to do with the immersive, in-universe simulation at work. I'd argue if you really don't want to know other empire's populations, military, or other statistics, then just don't look.

To be frank, considering DW lacks histograms, graphs, and other data, the Victory Screen is also the closest thing we have to a proper statistical analysis of the galaxy! It's unfortunate this is true, but it is...

TL;DR: Track more data!

< Message edited by Galaxy227 -- 2/2/2022 10:12:54 AM >

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)

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RE: Victory screen and other information? - 2/2/2022 10:39:49 AM

devoncop

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I agree with both of you here !

Yes the victory screen gives a player way too much information about how an empire they may not have even discovered is doing, which is in itself very odd but as Galaxy points out if you don't want to know that then no-one is forcing a player to look.

Its a bit like complaints that I often hear about certain mechanics in games being exploitable by players to break the game by using cheesy strategies. It never seemms to occur to such complainants that if you hate this fact so much dont do it !

I am an average player at best in most wargames because I refuse to min max and enjoy the roleplay aspect of some games and try to play historically in others.

No problem.

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RE: Victory screen and other information? - 2/2/2022 11:12:36 AM

Jorgen_CAB

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Sure... you can ignore it... which is what I'm forced to do... in my opinion it is a lost opportunity for an interesting mechanic. There is no reason that you should not know how economically strong someone are that you have a free trade agreement with for example, it would be really hard for them to cover their economy from you. You should even gain some technology sharing automatically by having trade agreements with other factions and independents.

Just saying to ignore it I think is a mistakes and an obvious thong you can do. Games like these need to have more dynamic technology transfusion.

< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 2/2/2022 11:15:33 AM >

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RE: Victory screen and other information? - 2/2/2022 3:43:46 PM

Franky007

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I agree that this information should be linked with Spy/Diplomacy/Trade.

But you should also be able to know your rank in the game at all time.

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)

Post #: 5

RE: Victory screen and other information? - 2/2/2022 4:11:49 PM

StarLab

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Interesting - A deep cover agent could contribute info to the Victory Screen, etc...

< Message edited by StarLab -- 2/2/2022 4:13:21 PM >

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RE: Victory screen and other information? - 2/2/2022 5:44:53 PM

Slish

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I think best way would be to have victory conditions partially hidden. So you can only see what rank you are. But not the specific numbers. This should be the default option, and it's like this in many other games. We usually see just a score, but not the specifics.

Then you can have options to totally hide or reveal it.

The idea about spies/diplomacy to reveal more is very nice too!

(in reply to StarLab)

Post #: 7

RE: Victory screen and other information? - 2/2/2022 6:04:19 PM

Mightymaster

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I really like the victory sceen. But your idea of linking it to spies/trade etc. is very cool. To get updated information you have to aquire new data through trade/spies. Would be interesting.

(in reply to Slish)

Post #: 8

RE: Victory screen and other information? - 2/3/2022 8:16:35 AM

Jorgen_CAB

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Yes... in general I think that there should be some effort into what information you know about opponent empires. Information like the one we have in the victory screen is VERY powerful and you can base allot of your strategies around it.

To me, not knowing, is part of the challenge. I don't want to know how strong an opponent is that I have bad relations with and who closed their economy and empire from me. I probably don't even know all of their colonies either unless I managed to steal their territory map, even then I don't know what happened since I did that. I should not be able to automatically know how much population they have on their planet unless they have an open society and trade deals that will reveal them. Having restricted trade is probably not enough to know everything either as you can easily by sealed of from their society and only allowed to visit special sections in their trade locations etc..

Knowledge is a huge power and should not be shared so easily in the game without trust between empires. I even think that most empires should not trade military technology unless you are allied either, these technologies should not even show in the trade screen until you have an alliance. What power in the universe would trade military secrets with a potential enemy in the future?!?
There need to be a level of trust for certain technologies to be even offered, in my opinion.

I also think that regular trade should also start to leak technology to those involved. It should be really hard to hide technology if you are trading and sending tourists to other empires. That is how technology have usually been transferred in real life over history.
This wold be really simple mechanic... you will start to gain the odd research point in technologies your trade partner possess that you don't have. It obviously will not be military technology unless you also are allied. So the type of technology transferred this way would depend on your trade and diplomatic ties. You probably also could have active research agreements as well, that is different and more active collaboration of new technologies so very different.

But empires that is meshed together in a web of free trade should eventually develop very similar technology levels... at least it should be very hard to stay far behind the others in the civilian branch of technology.

< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 2/3/2022 8:23:45 AM >

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RE: Victory screen and other information? - 2/3/2022 1:57:49 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

To me, not knowing, is part of the challenge. I don't want to know how strong an opponent is that I have bad relations with and who closed their economy and empire from me. I probably don't even know all of their colonies either unless I managed to steal their territory map, even then I don't know what happened since I did that. I should not be able to automatically know how much population they have on their planet unless they have an open society and trade deals that will reveal them. Having restricted trade is probably not enough to know everything either as you can easily by sealed of from their society and only allowed to visit special sections in their trade locations etc..

Now I am not sure Victory screen itself is supposed to be fair. Not a lot of things are fair in Distant Worlds. In fact DasTactic called both games "Beautifully Unbalanced" on Stream. And I am likely to agree. The primary job of the Victory screen is to communicate clear information on who is about to win ahead of you, how close you are to victory, etc.

With all that being said:
In DW2, you already have limited information about pirates. It is called "known Fleetpower" for a reason. Maybe we could go off that?

However I do think that using any part of your empire for Diplomatic means should require you disclosing some parts of it.
Stellaris has a concept of both Diplomatic Power (a funtion of Population, Economic Production, Military Power and Technology).
It also has aconcept of Intel in each 4 of those categories.

My suggestion to them was to tie them together: In order to use your Fleet Power for Diplomacy, you have to disclose certain intel levels about it.
We know where each and every US Carrier is 90% of the time. This is them making some Intel Public (Location, Class, Fleet Composition) and easily tracked, to use them in their Diplomacy.

If China, Russia or anyone else claimed to have comparable fleet power? They would be laughted at for being so insecure. Unless they made them about as visible as the US carrier fleet is.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 2/3/2022 1:58:34 PM >

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)

Post #: 10

RE: Victory screen and other information? - 2/3/2022 2:54:38 PM

Jorgen_CAB

Posts: 336
Joined: 3/17/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Now I am not sure Victory screen itself is supposed to be fair. Not a lot of things are fair in Distant Worlds. In fact DasTactic called both games "Beautifully Unbalanced" on Stream. And I am likely to agree. The primary job of the Victory screen is to communicate clear information on who is about to win ahead of you, how close you are to victory, etc.

Not sure I agree that is what he actually meant though... the game itself being unbalanced is one thing. The Victory Scree information have nothing to do with that. It is just a powerful tool for the player to judge their strategies.

I have no objection of a player knowing their overall score or place in the galaxy, the player also don't have to ever look at that screen.

I just think it is a failed opportunity to do something more interesting and not have the victory screen or other similar information feels like cheating for some people.

At lest an option to hide or turn of that screen so we don't accidentally press it, I have had game ruined for me that way.

< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 2/3/2022 3:08:58 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Victory screen and other information? - 2/3/2022 3:35:18 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Now I am not sure Victory screen itself is supposed to be fair. Not a lot of things are fair in Distant Worlds. In fact DasTactic called both games "Beautifully Unbalanced" on Stream. And I am likely to agree. The primary job of the Victory screen is to communicate clear information on who is about to win ahead of you, how close you are to victory, etc.

Not sure I agree that is what he actually meant though... the game itself being unbalanced is one thing. The Victory Scree information have nothing to do with that. It is just a powerful tool for the player to judge their strategies.

I have no objection of a player knowing their overall score or place in the galaxy, the player also don't have to ever look at that screen.

I just think it is a failed opportunity to do something more interesting and not have the victory screen or other similar information feels like cheating for some people.

At lest an option to hide or turn of that screen so we don't accidentally press it, I have had game ruined for me that way.

I literally offered an option to implement this. With a reference to a DW2 mechanic I knew.

How did you intpret my post as "we should never have that"?

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)

Post #: 12

RE: Victory screen and other information? - 2/3/2022 5:13:15 PM

Jorgen_CAB

Posts: 336
Joined: 3/17/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Now I am not sure Victory screen itself is supposed to be fair. Not a lot of things are fair in Distant Worlds. In fact DasTactic called both games "Beautifully Unbalanced" on Stream. And I am likely to agree. The primary job of the Victory screen is to communicate clear information on who is about to win ahead of you, how close you are to victory, etc.

Not sure I agree that is what he actually meant though... the game itself being unbalanced is one thing. The Victory Scree information have nothing to do with that. It is just a powerful tool for the player to judge their strategies.

I have no objection of a player knowing their overall score or place in the galaxy, the player also don't have to ever look at that screen.

I just think it is a failed opportunity to do something more interesting and not have the victory screen or other similar information feels like cheating for some people.

At lest an option to hide or turn of that screen so we don't accidentally press it, I have had game ruined for me that way.

I literally offered an option to implement this. With a reference to a DW2 mechanic I knew.

How did you intpret my post as "we should never have that"?