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Axis allies useless? - 2/3/2022 1:34:56 PM   
exalted

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 2/3/2022
Status: offline 		I used to play quite a bit of War in the East but currently trying out War in the East 2 and I like it but...

What the hell has happened to the Italians, Romanians and even Hungarians they where always crap but I've had full romanian divisions barely able to shift <1cv russian divisions and usually with horrendous losses?

So what are you using the axis allies for just filling out the soviet garisson?

Building up forts behind the line?

Or is there a way to make them moderatly useful?

My current idea is actually editing up their national moral by 5-10 points on my next run at the 1941 scenario (a setting for this would have been awesome), I really dislike having useless counters on the map at all.
Post #: 1
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/3/2022 1:40:29 PM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline 		Slovak mobile brigade is useful.

Romanian infantry divisions are good for either taking Odessa outright or softening it up for a German assault, then sending the sacrificial lambs into the Soviet garrison TB.

Romanian and Hungarian mobile units (i.e. cavalry brigades) are useful to grab hexes because of their MPs.

Basically the Axis minor forces in WitE 2 are useful as either easy fodder for the Soviets to gain Guard status for their divisions, sacrificial lambs to take Odessa or filling up the garrison TB for the most part. You could theoretically make use of them as extra men when on the defensive, but you absolutely cannot leave them on their own without the Germans to babysit them.

(in reply to exalted)
Post #: 2
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/3/2022 1:46:41 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		"Axis allies useless?" absolutely, when it comes to fighting...
There are few of Rumanian divisions like mountains and guard divisions that performs a little bit better cuz of 65-60 morale. Other allies, except of Finns and Slovak mobile, are a joke!

(in reply to exalted)
Post #: 3
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/3/2022 1:54:47 PM   
Fraggo5


Posts: 46
Joined: 3/24/2021
From: Peterborough U.K
Status: offline 		I have found the Rumanians to be effective when used en masse with the right General, The Hungarians again really strong with the right General but not needing the same amount of divisions as the Rumanians.
I used the Italians to shore up holes in the lines mainly in the south but by the end game in my 178 turn slog to victory they have already disappeared.
Keep them supplied with su's and build up cpp coupled with the right leadership and see how they go then.

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 4
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/3/2022 2:25:04 PM   
DesertedFox


Posts: 314
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline 		Here are three unsourced (that I could see anyway) links that basically regurgitate the same

details that the books I have read about the Romanians in WW2.

https://stalingradfront.com/articles/articles-about-ww2/romanians/

https://www.rbth.com/history/332573-how-and-why-romanians-fought

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/romanian-tanks-ww2.php


(in reply to Fraggo5)
Post #: 5
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/3/2022 2:53:13 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		There has been a discussion about usefullness / the National Morale for Axis Minors already - and the Devs answer was that their National Morale is appropriate.

I do not have a link at hand but yes - the solution if you play single player is to use the Editor.

I am one of the various player agreeing their NM is too low.

To answer the topic proper in general yes barring the few 'elite' ones that have a +15 to their NM, the Axis minors are pratically a potential waste of supplies. At best they can dig forts or maybe beef up German defenders.
In general if they get a defeat their units pratically disintegrate at once.

(in reply to DesertedFox)
Post #: 6
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/3/2022 3:06:53 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		The problem seems that units below 50 morale are losing usefulness far faster than they gain if they are above 50. So at 40 they lose more combat capability than they gain with 60.

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 7
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/3/2022 3:18:46 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		And Rumanians are 45 by default. One successful attack from a Soviet player sends them miles away. As it was mention before. Axis allies really need a buff. Except for Finnish troops.

(in reply to Denniss)
Post #: 8
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/3/2022 3:19:25 PM   
exalted

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 2/3/2022
Status: offline 		Good then it's not just me.

I'm pretty sure that the supply I'm shipping to them in my current campaign actually made it more difficult during winter 41 rather than having any real positive effects.

I'm curious about what the right generals would be Fraggo? I've tried german command which makes it slightly better but they still collapse more or less directly even if they can have a temporary decent CV it seems very much an illusion that doesn't exist if they actually attack or are attacked. Mostly it seems to be about taking disproportional casualties sometimes several times the soviet losses even when they win.

(in reply to Denniss)
Post #: 9
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/3/2022 3:26:26 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		Even Model, best leader in the game, will not help much. Yes it is better to have German leader than Rumanian one, but each division take 3 capacity points instead of 2, if assigned to a corps with a leader that is from other country than division itself. So German corps can command 3 non German divisions maximum (3*3=9 points) without a penalties.

(in reply to exalted)
Post #: 10
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/3/2022 3:33:22 PM   
Great_Ajax


Posts: 4774
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Alabama, USA
Status: offline 		What would be nice if there was some granularity in national morale to set for the units beyond just elite, non-elite and motorized. Then you could incorporate more variations in troop quality.

Elite - NM +10

Veteran - NM +5

Professional Fully trained unit - NM +0

Professional untrained unit - NM -5

Conscript untrained - NM -10

Militia/Extreme Poor Morale - NM - 15









_____________________________

"You want mercy!? I'm chaotic neutral!"

WiTE Scenario Designer
WitW Scenario/Data Team Lead
WitE 2.0 Scenario Designer

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 11
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/3/2022 3:43:33 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I thought of something like that - given I was coveting the idea of a German promotion system of X units per month that can 'veteran' up with a NM bump.
I've seen something like that is done in some scenarios or late campaigns.

+15 Elite looks good - heck by the combat performances it does not even cut it for all I can see in my AAR. The German Elite divisions do not really seem ... elite at all. But that may be due to other reasons.

The maluses on the other hand tend to not work well I feel. For in general a unit with a neat penalty compared to the national morale ends up ... well Luftwaffe Feld divisions for instance, how regularly they're used in a '41 Campaign? Would a player ever refit them? On need they're the first manpower that gets disbanded because it turns into 'generic' manpower.


(in reply to Great_Ajax)
Post #: 12
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/3/2022 4:18:42 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: exalted

Good then it's not just me.

I'm pretty sure that the supply I'm shipping to them in my current campaign actually made it more difficult during winter 41 rather than having any real positive effects.

....


they can be used very effectively but need careful management. All the mot formations are perfectly ok.

In 1941 the Rumanians have 3 usages, they can shield the western edge of a pocket - frees up a lot, they can attack or defend when stacked with German units or flip hexes. Some players use them for an assault on Odessa just to strip down Soviet resources. They refit readily and you can get their morale up with carefully curated wins. Come 1943 I use them as a screen, in the way a Soviet player uses weak stuff in 1941 - they have to be beaten, they deny admin movement and consume CPP - even better they remain easy to refit.

By 1943 and later the Hungarians can stand on their own defensively and the tank divisions are incredibly useful for cutting things off

Italians sit somewhere between the two

_____________________________


(in reply to exalted)
Post #: 13
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/10/2022 5:17:56 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		Here is how it looks to fight with Rumanians.

Enemy moved 2 cavalry divisions through ferry hex and my ZOC. I imagine he used all of his MP.
My divisions were resting and had 100 CPP and 70%+ supplies/ammo.
52k vs 8k.
No SU from Soviet side.

Even with such an advantage they suffered more disruption. How it is possible? I have no idea. (yep it is blizzard but same goes for a summer and all other seasons, they are useless 24/7, every year).




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Stamb -- 2/10/2022 5:23:18 PM >

(in reply to exalted)
Post #: 14
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/10/2022 5:25:13 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		They already lost 10% of their TOE. Each division. Imagine what would happen with them if they are under attack? Half way to Romania already.

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 15
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/10/2022 5:28:08 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		And compare it with normal German infantry division (75 NM, nothing special)




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 16
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/10/2022 5:28:16 PM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 514
Joined: 8/4/2014
Status: offline 		They suffered more disruptions because they had more than 6 times as many men involved in the battle.

If you look at it this way - 9.4% of the Rumanian men involved ended the battle disrupted. In contrast to 45.2%.

The difference is even more stark if you take destroyed men into account - that gives you 9.5% compared to 62.7%.

[Edit] In your German ID example note that the division started the battle with 528 elements (roughly 4700 men) already disrupted whereas the Rumanian divisions didn't start with any disrupted elements.

< Message edited by Sammy5IsAlive -- 2/10/2022 5:35:25 PM >

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 17
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/10/2022 5:30:51 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		50% of that destroyed men are due to a route/retreat.
during a battle itself numbers are: 571 dead Rumanians for 899 Soviet. And this is with 6x more men!

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 18
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/10/2022 5:35:33 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		And it was not a simple Rum. divisions. They were 5:0, another one 4:1, another one 1:0 wins/defeats statuses. It means they are > 45 base morale.
Actually average is 47 as shown on a screen.

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 19
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/10/2022 5:49:25 PM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 514
Joined: 8/4/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

50% of that destroyed men are due to a route/retreat.
during a battle itself numbers are: 571 dead Rumanians for 899 Soviet. And this is with 6x more men!


So then compare that with your example involving the German ID. Your Rumanian attackers destroyed men at a rate of 0.25 men destroyed/ready element. Contrast that with the Soviet attackers in the second example where each ready element only destroyed 0.04 men on average. Your Rumanians were roughly 6 times more effective than the Soviets were on the attack!

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 20
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/10/2022 5:49:46 PM   
Zebtucker12


Posts: 117
Joined: 1/8/2017
Status: offline 		They are not useless!
When im playing the soviets i love seing axis minors because i know now i can farm some guards!

(in reply to exalted)
Post #: 21
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/10/2022 5:54:39 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		I understand all the jokes but believe me. It is not a joke to have such "allies" in a GC. Same rules applies to Italians, Hungarians. It is super strange that so many patches after a release and we are still having this problem and developers are not going to change anything. One more reason to a list why not to play as an Axis.

< Message edited by Stamb -- 2/10/2022 5:58:31 PM >

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Post #: 22
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/10/2022 5:57:31 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		You can feed them with precious supply for multiple turns, attack with them only when you are sure that you will win, to bring their morale up. And in a first serious attack they will route so hard, that you will need a super depot to refit them.

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 23
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/10/2022 6:06:29 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		Remember there was 1 cavalry division that retread, it means 0 CPP?

Here it is:





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Stamb -- 2/10/2022 6:08:16 PM >

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Post #: 24
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/10/2022 6:36:26 PM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 514
Joined: 8/4/2014
Status: offline 		That is exactly the same as the last one?

Your Romanians attacked with 2668 elements. After 5 of these were destroyed, c. 0.7% ended the battle disrupted. The Soviet division started with 263 elements and had 222 destroyed. So the 15 elements that were disrupted represented 37% of what remained

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 25
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/10/2022 9:10:13 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

Posts: 3107
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
Status: offline 		The issue I have is the Rumanian divisions get trashed just by attrition even in June 41.

One idea maybe to say is as they gain exp their morale goes up so say over 55 exp they get +5 morale, then you have an incentive to nurture them?

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 26
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/11/2022 5:17:35 AM   
DarkHorse2

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 2/4/2022
Status: offline 		Third Axis, Fourth Ally
Romanian Armed Forces in the European War, 1941 thru 1945
By Mark Axworthy, Cornel I. Scafeș, Cristian Crăciunoiu · 1995

-----

Probably a little more fair toward the Romanians than other works.

quote:

John
Mar 31, 2021

Complete coverage of Romania's involvement in WWII from the politics and diplomacy leading to its involvement, to the development of its major weapons systems, to the operations of all three of its armed forces (army, air force, and navy).

The title of the book is indicative of one of the authors theses: that their greater involvement on the Eastern Front, and control of the Ploiesti oil fields, make them the third most important Axis power behind Germany and Japan. That they then changed sides and fought on the side of the Allies, he argues, makes them the fourth most important Ally behind the USSR, the US, and the UK (a less convincing argument than the first one).

His other thesis is that German criticism of Romania for the debacle at Stalingrad is misplaced. With evidence given that Romanian troops were poorly equipped and supported compared to their German allies, and that German troops would not have achieved any greater success given equal circumstances.

He doesn't spend time in the body of the book arguing either thesis, instead simply presenting the known facts of what happened. A good book filling a gap in the history of WWII.


Book is fairly expensive if you purchase it outright. However, if you look, you should be able to find a free PDF download.

(in reply to DesertedFox)
Post #: 27
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/12/2022 1:45:56 PM   
Nikel

 

Posts: 355
Joined: 3/24/2009
Status: offline 		This table regarding Germany's allies may be useful, from Lev Lopukhovsky and Boris Kavalerchik book, The Price of Victory: The Red Army's Casualties in the Great Patriotic War.

The ratio killed:POW may give us some idea of who were better fighting or more brave at least. The problem is with the Romanian and Slovakian armies with so many missing, where they killed or POW?



Ignoring the MIA, clearly Finns were the best and Hungarian the worst.

Hungary 1:3,46

Italy 1:1,36

Romania 1:2,30

Slovakia 1:0,24

Finland 1:0,06


Considering MIA as killed, I suppose this is more correct. The Romanians improve a lot, also Slovakian but were already very good. Finns and Slovakians preferred to die before surrendering.

Hungary 1:3,46

Italy 1:1,36

Romania 1:0,88

Slovakia 1:0,08

Finland 1:0,06


Perhaps there is a bias because there are no MIA listed for Hungary and Italy.




< Message edited by Nikel -- 2/12/2022 2:29:04 PM >

(in reply to DarkHorse2)
Post #: 28
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/12/2022 2:18:48 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		nvm
.

< Message edited by Stamb -- 2/12/2022 2:20:21 PM >

(in reply to Nikel)
Post #: 29
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/12/2022 2:21:42 PM   
Nikel

 

Posts: 355
Joined: 3/24/2009
Status: offline 		No, it is a ratio comparing their own killed:POW.

The hypothesis is, the less inclined to surrender and more to die fighting, were better and should have a better morale.


Edit: Sorry, you deleted the post.

< Message edited by Nikel -- 2/12/2022 2:27:10 PM >

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 30
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