Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Are there any sources (I was not able to find) where it is described how many planes each side is losing during a battle? Not for a time period. But for a battles itself.

I can not imagine that this was happening in real life, except maybe for the first few weeks.

Or was it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

VVS still gets obliterated by the UFO's the Axis are flying by Alien pilots with 10 limbs. Loss ratio is beginning to get better on land which is a good sign. Applying pressure where I can as much as I can. Virtually impossible to attempt an encirclement as Loki keeps his Armoured units in reserve to thwart any attempt at that.

If there's anything specific readers want to ask/see let me know

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

The VVS was getting trashed in Russia and even later on had problems.
When the VVS dominated the skies it was in virtue of sheer numbers and Luftwaffe being in the West.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

My examples are with rested pilots from both sides. There was heavy rain for multiple turns. And now it is cold in the air.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Are there any sources (I was not able to find) where it is described how many planes each side is losing during a battle? Not for a time period. But for a battles itself.

I can not imagine that this was happening in real life, except maybe for the first few weeks.

Or was it?

I say this with the understanding that reading specifically about the airwar in Russia is something on my to-do list for the future.

I am not going to complain about those numbers in 41 and even 42. However, I am seeing in the 43 AARs such as speedy's

(linked below) that the Russians are still getting slaughtered. It was I believe at Kurk 43 that they finally were able to

begin to dominate the skies over most of the Russian front. This doesn't appear to be happening though. I feel this is something that might need looking at.

Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken in what I have just said.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4992932&mpage=14&key=�

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

VVS still gets obliterated by the UFO's the Axis are flying by Alien pilots with 10 limbs. Loss ratio is beginning to get better on land which is a good sign. Applying pressure where I can as much as I can. Virtually impossible to attempt an encirclement as Loki keeps his Armoured units in reserve to thwart any attempt at that.

If there's anything specific readers want to ask/see let me know

quote:

From 5 to 31 July Greim lost 229 aircraft, while Seidemann lost 192, a total of 421. In the same period 16th VA lost 439 aircraft, 2nd VA 372 and 17th VA 244, a total of 1,055, or a third of their strength – figures which reflect the greater experience of Luftwaffe airmen. But this quality was rapidly being eroded – the Stuka arm lost eight Ritterkreuz-holders during July while the Jagdwaffe’s emphasis upon Experten meant its effectiveness declined because the ‘Young Hares’ lacked their experience. The Russians suffered the same problem, with Krasovskii’s Shturmovik regiments losing 209 aircraft in July – the average ‘Ilyusha’ pilot was lasting just six sorties (or 13 hours). By comparison, the average fighter pilot lasted 15 sorties (11.5 hours) and bomber pilots 62 sorties (almost 70 hours).

The Germans’ experience told, and the two air armies lost 59 aircraft – 1st GvIAK had 25 fighters destroyed and 19 pilots killed or captured, while Deichmann lost ten aeroplanes. He flew another 1,000 sorties on the second day, but fuel shortages cut this to around 700 on 14 July.

The Germans also withdrew large quantities of material, some flown out in more than 3,000 transport sorties between 21 July and 17 August, when Kutozov was ended because the Germans had occupied the Hagenstellung. During the offensive the Russians flew 60,995 sorties, dropped 15,000 tonnes of bombs and lost 1,104 aircraft, while Deichmann’s men had flown 37,421 sorties, dropped more than 20,000 tonnes of bombs and lost 199 combat aircraft.

Overall fighter strength in the East dropped to 330 by 1 September and 390 by 1 January 1944, as the VVS grew in strength and quality.

The Kiev offensive caught Manstein off guard, for he believed the greater threat would come from the south where, on 23 October, Khryukin with 900 aircraft supported an attack upon Kleist’s left that by the end of the month had isolated the Crimea. The scale of Russian activity may be gauged from the fact Goryunov flew 10,165 sorties and dropped 975 tonnes of bombs during October while Khryukin flew 12,380 sorties. The Russians continued to be plagued by inexperienced pilots, however – a major cause of the 47 fighters lost by General-maior Aleksandr Outin’s 7th IAK, which amounted to 65 per cent of Goryunov’s total losses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

The Luftwaffe dominated the skies over Kursk WHEN they had enough fuel, planes and pilots to do so. Lack of fuel especially prevented the Luftwaffe from maintaining air dominance.

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The first Russian operation by all the air armies around the Kursk Salient struck 17 airfields during 6–8 May, with planning confined to a small group to achieve surprise. The aim was to catch aircraft while they were being serviced, and air army commanders were notified only 24 hours before D-Day, with some regimental commanders briefed only four hours before take-off. The three-day offensive involved 1,392 sorties, with formations streaming through narrow sectors under radio silence to surprise and saturate the defences. The operation claimed 506 aircraft, 373 on the ground, for the loss of 122, but German losses were actually five aircraft destroyed and 20 damaged

quote:

Soviet Union: Total losses were 17,900 bombers, 23,600 ground attacker, 46,800 fighter aircraft, and 18,100 training, transport and other aircraft; an overall loss of over 106,400 aircraft; 46,100 in combat and 60,300 non-combat. Of which, 18,300 Lend-Lease aircraft were lost. Grigori F. Krivosheev states: "A high percentage of combat aircraft were lost in relation to the number available on 22 June 1941: 442% (total losses) or 216% (combat losses). In the air force over a half of losses were non-combat losses."

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Germany produced 119,907 aircraft of all types, including bomber, transport, reconnaissance, gliders, training, seaplanes and flying boats. Most of them were either destroyed, damaged, captured or sold.[2] Estimated total number of destroyed and damaged for the war totaled 76,875 aircraft, of which 40,000 were total losses and the remainder significantly damaged. By type, losses totaled 21,452 fighters, 12,037 bombers, 15,428 trainers, 10,221 twin-engine fighters, 5,548 ground attack, 6,733 reconnaissance, and 6,141 transports

quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

The loss rate per sortie is much too high. Losing 200 planes from being intercepted by 50 just never happened. Reasonably a WITE2 sortie covers several real life sorties, since several sorties a day were normal, but even then units would have ceased operations long before being wiped out in this manner.

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

no it was in virtue of producing fighters that were a very good fit to their doctrine and finally getting control over their pilot training

by the end the Axis couldn't deal with the Yak-3

quote:

during the offensive the Russians flew 60,995 sorties, dropped 15,000 tonnes of bombs and lost 1,104 aircraft,