Please dont run obfuscation over the code!

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Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/1/2022 10:58:31 PM

Deathawaits4

Posts: 5
Joined: 3/1/2021
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Hello dear developers,

i am very hyped for the game, but for every upcoming game i am very interested in, i have a few fears.
I have already asked about something simmilar a while back, but the game was in early stages and now that the game is nearing release, i hope i can throw away some of my fears.

Some game studios have a fear of getting their code stolen, espacially if working with c# engines. Reason is most likely, that the code can be read if not intentionally obfuscated. History shows, that this is a very irrational fear and many huge games (and small games) do not obfuscate their code. One example is Mount and blade 2 bannerlord or nearly any unity game out there. This allows for modders to actually add their own mod support and modding tools to a game, which give a way stronger and healthier modding community.

I myself am a very experienced c# coder/modder and would love to dig into binary modding (even if unsupported by the devs) and create my own tools and so on.

I hope you guys dont intentionally obfuscate your code. I can fully understand not officialy supporting core modding, but please dont smash it right from the start!

i hope my pledge reaches open ears.

Post #: 1

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/1/2022 11:31:38 PM

Erik Rutins

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From: Vermont, USA
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I'll discuss this with Elliot, but as far as I know right now, he's quite protective of his code so I expect it would be obfuscated. I've seen a few other requests for "harmony" modding which is a similar thing. We may not have time to fully research this before release, but I promise we'll listen and consider the possibilities.

Regard,

- Erik

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Deathawaits4)

Post #: 2

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/1/2022 11:56:55 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I'll discuss this with Elliot, but as far as I know right now, he's quite protective of his code so I expect it would be obfuscated. I've seen a few other requests for "harmony" modding which is a similar thing. We may not have time to fully research this before release, but I promise we'll listen and consider the possibilities.

Regard,

- Erik

At the end of the day, all that Obfuscation does it make things harder to read after the inevitable decompliation.
As long as code can be executed on a CPU, it can be decompiled. That is the ultimate limit on obfuscation.

But at the end of the day, it is Elliots choice. And we can not realy fault him for wanting to keep his child in his care.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 3

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/2/2022 1:09:35 AM

Deathawaits4

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Joined: 3/1/2021
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I'll discuss this with Elliot, but as far as I know right now, he's quite protective of his code so I expect it would be obfuscated. I've seen a few other requests for "harmony" modding which is a similar thing. We may not have time to fully research this before release, but I promise we'll listen and consider the possibilities.

Regard,

- Erik

Thanks for your reply! Harmony is just the tool to inject code into existing functions without changing the base functions and cleanly overwriting existing functions at runtime.
I guess every company is protective of their code and obfuscation does not really do the trick in this regard. There have been recent leaks of the whole FIFA engine that has been sold by hackers.. and to say the least no one was interested in buying it. Even after the hackers have released the code to download for free, no one downloaded it. There have been no cases of c# games, that were unobfuscated, where any code has been stolen. There are lots of huge games, that allow core modding, that never had any issues of code beeing stolen or used other than modding.

I hope we can get Elliot to rethink his stance on this topic, but i also understand if not. In the end its the developers choice of what he thinks is right.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 4

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/2/2022 7:15:28 AM

Pocus

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Obfuscation would only be necessary if there was an example of a game code stolen then rebranded as a new game sold somewhere. I know of no such case. The others possibilities being modders doing their things with the code, like for example Rimworld. The code is not obfuscated and some advanced mods, equivalent in content to whole DLCs are made thanks to that.

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Post #: 5

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/2/2022 10:35:20 AM

Slish

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus

Obfuscation would only be necessary if there was an example of a game code stolen then rebranded as a new game sold somewhere. I know of no such case. The others possibilities being modders doing their things with the code, like for example Rimworld. The code is not obfuscated and some advanced mods, equivalent in content to whole DLCs are made thanks to that.

I believe Myth of Empires was accused of this? They stole code, and even got taken down on Steam?

(in reply to Pocus)

Post #: 6

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/2/2022 10:38:47 AM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slish

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus

Obfuscation would only be necessary if there was an example of a game code stolen then rebranded as a new game sold somewhere. I know of no such case. The others possibilities being modders doing their things with the code, like for example Rimworld. The code is not obfuscated and some advanced mods, equivalent in content to whole DLCs are made thanks to that.

I believe Myth of Empires was accused of this? They stole code, and even got taken down on Steam?

But that was not decompliation.
IIRC they actually handeled/made the code to order, to fix the original issue Ark had.

Plus my last info is it avoided being taken down?
Edit: Nevermind. They are off Steam, but just sell it on their own now.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 2/2/2022 10:39:57 AM >

(in reply to Slish)

Post #: 7

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/2/2022 10:41:09 AM

Slish

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Joined: 1/25/2022
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slish

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus

Obfuscation would only be necessary if there was an example of a game code stolen then rebranded as a new game sold somewhere. I know of no such case. The others possibilities being modders doing their things with the code, like for example Rimworld. The code is not obfuscated and some advanced mods, equivalent in content to whole DLCs are made thanks to that.

I believe Myth of Empires was accused of this? They stole code, and even got taken down on Steam?

But that was not decompliation.
IIRC they actually handeled/made the code to order, to fix the original issue Ark had.

Plus my last info is it avoided being taken down?
Edit: Nevermind. They are off Steam, but just sell it on their own now.

Ok, I don't know all the details. Your post just reminded me of Myth of Empires. It is really taken down on Steam still. They are pursuing a court case though to get it back on Steam I believe.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 8

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/2/2022 10:58:29 AM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slish

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slish

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus

Obfuscation would only be necessary if there was an example of a game code stolen then rebranded as a new game sold somewhere. I know of no such case. The others possibilities being modders doing their things with the code, like for example Rimworld. The code is not obfuscated and some advanced mods, equivalent in content to whole DLCs are made thanks to that.

I believe Myth of Empires was accused of this? They stole code, and even got taken down on Steam?

But that was not decompliation.
IIRC they actually handeled/made the code to order, to fix the original issue Ark had.

Plus my last info is it avoided being taken down?
Edit: Nevermind. They are off Steam, but just sell it on their own now.

Ok, I don't know all the details. Your post just reminded me of Myth of Empires. It is really taken down on Steam still. They are pursuing a court case though to get it back on Steam I believe.

So I read up on it again:
Wildcard Games made Ark.
A Ex-Member of Wildcard - with access to the sourcecode - founded Snail games.
Snail games brought out Myth of Empires.
That is how they got suspicious.
A comparision of the code showed supposedly hundreds of similarities.

(in reply to Slish)

Post #: 9

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/2/2022 3:59:13 PM

makotech222

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I'm a modder and I'd like to express immense support for allowing us to Harmony mod the game. So many great games benefit from this process: Rimworld, Oxygen Not Included, etc, where modding greatly expands what the game is capable of and benefits everyone. I've never seen any game that gets decompiled that goes on to being stolen by someone else and sold.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 10

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/2/2022 8:26:18 PM

xan2622

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Joined: 6/12/2011
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I second Deathawaits4's request and makotech222's comment.
Please don't restrict modding.

Game mods allow players to extend the fun that a game offers, in so many different and exiting ways. It is just awesome to be able to customize the UI, 3D units, textures but also some game mechanics.

Please please, consider allowing modders to fully express their creativity (which, in the end, will make your players (your customers) happier and make them thankful to you for letting them download all these very various mods).

< Message edited by xan2622 -- 2/3/2022 3:18:09 PM >

(in reply to makotech222)

Post #: 11

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/3/2022 12:12:33 PM

Pocus

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It can be analyzed as a risk vs reward decision. Are risks high or low? What about rewards?

As a sidenote, I'm programming in Slitherine's Archon language, which is basically "scripts in plain sight". UI, AI, gameplay is 100% exposed in plain texts files, and pretty understandable as I comment a lot (my goldfish memory thanks me a lot about that, well it would if it remembered it should thanks my other self

).

If theft was even an uncommon occurrence and not something nearing non-existence, then I guess all the games done in Archon would be prime candidates. For example Battle Academy I, II, III, Field of Glory from Richard Bodley Scott and several others games, including mine (Empires and then <redacted>) . I have never heard anything about that.

< Message edited by Pocus -- 2/3/2022 12:13:30 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/3/2022 2:00:52 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

Please restrict modding to the minimum.

I think you got a flip in that sentence, as it says the opposit of the rest of your post.

(in reply to xan2622)

Post #: 13

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/3/2022 2:04:45 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

As a sidenote, I'm programming in Slitherine's Archon language, which is basically "scripts in plain sight". UI, AI, gameplay is 100% exposed in plain texts files, and pretty understandable as I comment a lot (my goldfish memory thanks me a lot about that, well it would if it remembered it should thanks my other self ).

If theft was even an uncommon occurrence and not something nearing non-existence, then I guess all the games done in Archon would be prime candidates. For example Battle Academy I, II, III, Field of Glory from Richard Bodley Scott and several others games, including mine (Empires and then <redacted>) . I have never heard anything about that.

This is unfortunately a poor example.
This is a interpreted langauge. And I am betting the Interpreter itself require licensing for commercial use.

Without the Interpreter, your Source Code is not more usefull for gaming then grandmothers cooking recipes.
And Slitherine propably has a way to get other games thrown out for blatant sourcecode theft. Similar to how you can get games thrown off Steam.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 2/3/2022 2:05:11 PM >

(in reply to Pocus)

Post #: 14

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/3/2022 3:19:25 PM

xan2622

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

Please restrict modding to the minimum.

I think you got a flip in that sentence, as it says the opposit of the rest of your post.

Oops, thank you for correcting me.
I indeed meant "please don't restrict modding (too much)".

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 15

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/3/2022 3:28:08 PM

Jorgen_CAB

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Open games like Rimworld are clear examples of how a strong modding community can carry what is a relatively simple game to greatness.

I doubt that anyone would steal the code to try and create a similar game and then sell it, that would be really difficult to get away with and the example of that happening are so rare to the examples of great modding communities have lifted the sales and popularity of games.

Ultimately it is the creators right to do as they wish and I would respect and support that, even if I don't agree with their decisions.

(in reply to xan2622)

Post #: 16

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/3/2022 5:49:23 PM

Pocus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

As a sidenote, I'm programming in Slitherine's Archon language, which is basically "scripts in plain sight". UI, AI, gameplay is 100% exposed in plain texts files, and pretty understandable as I comment a lot (my goldfish memory thanks me a lot about that, well it would if it remembered it should thanks my other self ).

If theft was even an uncommon occurrence and not something nearing non-existence, then I guess all the games done in Archon would be prime candidates. For example Battle Academy I, II, III, Field of Glory from Richard Bodley Scott and several others games, including mine (Empires and then <redacted>) . I have never heard anything about that.

This is unfortunately a poor example.
This is a interpreted langauge. And I am betting the Interpreter itself require licensing for commercial use.

Without the Interpreter, your Source Code is not more usefull for gaming then grandmothers cooking recipes.
And Slitherine propably has a way to get other games thrown out for blatant sourcecode theft. Similar to how you can get games thrown off Steam.

I beg to differ. You do need the interpreter obviously, but you don't need to understand anything of it. You only need to use the interpreted code to do whatever you want. This has never been done, and it's much easier to understand and edit it than working with an executable, even if not obfuscated.
If people were interested into stealing others people code, then a game done in Archon would be a prime candidate for that. Admittedly, they have less coverage and diffusion than Rimworld though.

_____________________________

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(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 17

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/3/2022 6:18:53 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

I beg to differ. You do need the interpreter obviously, but you don't need to understand anything of it. You only need to use the interpreted code to do whatever you want. This has never been done, and it's much easier to understand and edit it than working with an executable, even if not obfuscated.

You think a interpeter is a new concept?
Batchfiles
python
PHP

If you include interpreted langauges that get compiled into a intermediate format, you can add such uncommon stuff as:
Java and .NET

quote:

If people were interested into stealing others people code, then a game done in Archon would be a prime candidate for that.

It would also be easier to proove code theft then anywhere else.
And Archon - like any approach like it before and after - certainly has limits too.

(in reply to Pocus)

Post #: 18

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/3/2022 6:21:17 PM

Deathawaits4

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I am glad that my plege is getting so much support.
Code theft is near non existant. Something that happens on a regular basis is the theft of 3d/2d art by single entities trying to make some quick buck on 3d platforms, but decompiling 3d art is very easy anyway.

I really hope that this gets even more tractions to show how much we actually want this!

Thanks guys.

(in reply to Pocus)

Post #: 19

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/5/2022 8:51:45 AM

Bleek

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From the perspective of someone who doesn't mod, I really appreciate mods.

Elliot is a lone coder, and does an exceptional job. But he's still just one man and his keyboard.

Modding recruits a 'team' that expands exponentially and so the output of content. This attracts more players (buyers) and increases retention (play time). They're win-win in that respect.

For example, I wouldn't play DWU without some of the mods such as Bacon, expanded races and some of the ships and UI mods.

I'm really excited to see what modders bring to DW2, because it deserves the attention!

(in reply to Deathawaits4)

Post #: 20

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/5/2022 1:55:32 PM

bbenham

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The easier Elliot makes it to mod, the longer this product will be out there, active and selling. It's been proven by other titles over and over and over.

It may seem like an unwelcome invasion into your code, but you will sell vastly more copies over the years if you openly support modding, and that especially includes the code. Egosoft has learned and profited well from this. I would even venture to suggest a bit of an open API to modify the behavior of things.

(in reply to Bleek)

Post #: 21

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/5/2022 4:01:17 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

The easier Elliot makes it to mod, the longer this product will be out there, active and selling. It's been proven by other titles over and over and over.

As a example for games that lived through modding there are two good examples:

Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Original Release: 2008
Reached Stream: 2012
Last Update: Mon, June 28, 2021

Star Wars: Empire at War
Original Release: 2006
Reached Stream: 2006
Last Update: Thu, January 14, 2021

Both games kept alive entirely by the modding Community.
Updates are usually made with modding support in mind.

(in reply to bbenham)

Post #: 22

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/18/2022 8:23:39 PM

brucethemoose

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Just going to add to this:

The "Harmony" mod for Rimworld, which is required for any C# mods, has 1.25 million current subscribers. That's an order of magnitude more than SteamDB's sales estimate for the latest DLC (Ideology).

Personally, I would not have bought Ideology if Rimworld had obfuscated code. Same with the previous DLC, Royalty, and I have seen similar sentiments in the Rimworld community.

I'm not aware of any game that has successfully abused Rimworld's easy source access, in spite of the immense popularity.

The Steam Workshop can also be considered a soft anti piracy measure, as its extremely inconvenient to use mods without a Steam copy of the game.

(in reply to Pocus)

Post #: 23

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/18/2022 9:34:51 PM

Mightymaster

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Yeah, Rimworld has by far the best modding community in my experience. Hope DW2 can get close to that.

(in reply to brucethemoose)

Post #: 24

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/19/2022 2:10:50 AM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

The easier Elliot makes it to mod, the longer this product will be out there, active and selling. It's been proven by other titles over and over and over.

As a example for games that lived through modding there are two good examples:

Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Original Release: 2008
Reached Stream: 2012
Last Update: Mon, June 28, 2021

Star Wars: Empire at War
Original Release: 2006
Reached Stream: 2006
Last Update: Thu, January 14, 2021

Both games kept alive entirely by the modding Community.
Updates are usually made with modding support in mind.

Very true. Awakening of the Rebellion for SWEAW is one of my favorite mods and mods like these still bring in sales of these super old games!

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 2/19/2022 2:11:29 AM >

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Post #: 25

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/20/2022 7:32:15 AM

brucethemoose

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Another positive example: Barotrauma is open source, but has a regular proprietary license and is sold on Steam. I cant post links yet, but look up "Barotrauma" on Github.

In fact, its been open source for years, going back when it was in alpha, and that has done nothing but help the game.

And its a high profile game! SteamDB estimates it has about 1M owners and 3k concurrent players.

I'm not saying DW2 should be posted on GitHub... But I am saying that obfuscating code is not strictly necessary for a commercial game anymore.

Oh, and one other bit about Rimworld. Harmony/C# modding started out as a forum only thing in that community, but eventually made the jump to Steam Workshop. In fact, beta builds obliterated mods all the time, but the community was fine with it. As others have already said, yall don't have to lift a finger to support modding, and the community would still love it.

< Message edited by brucethemoose -- 2/20/2022 7:34:59 AM >

(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 26

RE: Please dont run obfuscation over the code! - 2/22/2022 3:36:49 PM

Deathawaits4

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I am really glad that there are so many people interested in modding this game beyond only editing some XML files.

I really like everything i have seen about the game, but i am still very scared that the decision to obfuscate the code will be made. If i knew otherwise i probably would have pre ordered the game instantly but i am currently reserved. I just lost interest in most games that limited modding. I will propably still buy this game, but it feels heavy on my heart as it could be everything i have dreamed off.

(in reply to brucethemoose)

Post #: 27