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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG

 
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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/3/2022 4:15:52 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T103 - German Stug is the German Jolly

Here the Hermann Goering Panzer Division in its glory ... I mean ... its leftovers.

It changed TOE though! But the Stugs are ever present to act as filler for anything that has tracks!





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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/3/2022 4:29:48 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		@Loki: We can agree to disagree here, you have an opinion, I've another on the matter. It's not rocket science to keep units in fortified positions and how the logistic system work - well for you it's ace, for me it has extremely wide margins of improvement. Also in your game you may have a shorter front / easier logistics? If part of the 'management' is 'shorten your front to have an easier life' then one may as well pull back into Poland directly!

T103 - Don River Bend to Manych Lake sector:

The Soviets here have made impressive advance and encircled an amount of Axis forces.

With foreseeing skills I redirected here the 2 Elite SS Panzergrenadier Divisions that came from the West.
Their nominal CV though is only 16. They do not have CCPs, but have minimal fatigue before moving (They pratically just got there and unloaded from the trains and received air supply freight to have mobility for this turn), and their TOE is 90%+.

At this stage here there is not to do even a fighting withdrawal but to liberate the troops and make a run for the life toward Rostov and the fortified positions created even before Winter '42-'43!

I'll have a small discussion on the Alpini in the next reply!






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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/3/2022 4:41:35 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T103 - Alpini's resistance...

Here we see an Alpini Regiment to have endured 3 rather measly attacks of the Soviets, also thanks to the intervention of generous Corps Artillery.

Things that I want to point out are that...

The Ski Battallion ought to be some crack unit, no less than the Alpini it is attached to. (Should have NM of 60 if not more there but there is already another thread about the Alpini and their TOE)

The performance of the Alpini riflemen seems quite lousy in general considering their morale / experience level.

Take a note even here that despite having suffered 0 losses, the NM of the Alpini division has dropped from the starting 70 of when they arrive to 68. And their whole career in Russia is crowned only by successes.

I just feel the 0.2 or 0.3 HPE of the riflemen quite underwhelming there for supposed troops of quality.
Ultimately the Russians have got away pretty much scott free from the attacks against a relatively fortified position manned by quality troops.




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/3/2022 5:45:12 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T103 - Manych / Don counteroffensives

Covering just this situation before to save to server and go dine and do other stuff.

The only part I've done past the air recon (Yes in these days the Luftwaffe is Air Recon and Air Supply - and interceptions) is to operate here.

First of all the attacks across the Don have been nice and sweet victories. The Russians parked there 4 nominal CV corps so they got pounced at once. Small problem ... the Romanian divisions that took part to the attacks dropped from 8-9 CV to 2-3 CV (between losing CCPs and the like). I'll try to cycle in as I've reserves there but the supply situation is not pleasant.

The freshly arrived SS units led by Herr Balck did their dirty job, even the Romanian armoured division was thrown in the fray (adequately filled with German SUs).

That 13-13 Guard Tank corps I'd like to hit again as it just retreated so I am sure it's not anymore a 13 CV but I am not sure what I can factually use to get to it.

But at least anything that was pocketed can dash away.




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/3/2022 5:59:04 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T103 - Panzergrenadier Ground Elements

Just seeking to show the pattern about the Panzergrenadier ground elements having a very low HPE.
In general it seems to me that the 'infantry' component attached to mobile divisions is somehow subpar.

These are the 4 German combats to liberate the pocket shown above, all conducted by mobile forces.








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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/3/2022 11:51:34 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T103 - Caucasus withdrawal

Alas the pointes could not retreat that far so the withdrawal has the look of a bulge where the Italian alpinis are the rearguard, eastmost. Their flanks covered by Romanians and the Germans are the closemost to the roots.

I can only hope that the Soviet mobile forces got hindered enough this turn to leave me mostly unmolested next turn to continue retreating without having a need of ulterior offensives; because German troops simply fight 2-3 times and then they're spent for God knows how long.

But I suspect the Russians too face similar issue here. Which may be good for operational tempo for me to lick wounds.

Though the Soviet army here is limited in numbers too.










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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/4/2022 12:22:47 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T103 - Italian Interlude

As someone else already underlined the TBs gain a lot of replacements.

Notice here how the Panzer Divisions in Italy are getting to 100% TOE even if Italy has 0 action going!
The % missing to some are 88s, of which the Reich is desperately short!

I start to think that some artillery pieces should have a fluctuating max - maybe that follows the ups and downs of Armament multipliers?

I do not know, but it seems I've a massive shortage of 88s.

And obviously the Panzer Divisions in the East are not receiving tanks but I can live with that as it takes freight.
I just suspect somewhen Panzer Division from Italy goes on map, and Panzer Division from map goes to Italy...




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/4/2022 12:48:00 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T103 - Voronhez sector

Air Recon is ... iffy.

How it can miss -two- units in a hex so close or a whole tank corp in open plains is beyond me.
Ground recon solved it for me though - a LW Feld division, totally useless in open combat, just splits, explores, and returns to reform in the rearlines.

A HQ was stacked with the 3rd Guard Corps, and it was dislodged and the leader, Vasily Glagolev, perished in action leading the brave defenders! -- I do not know who the guy is, but I am pretty curious right now I will prolly load some scenario later to see which are their stats!

In the south two half shanked and shambling Panzer Divisions beat down an exhausted Guard Cavalry Corp.
The Germans were showing 5~ CV each on map and the Soviets 4... it's clear the Soviets shown an illusion as they show 8 now after they retreated!

The big question is what to do now with the Germans here as the situation is precarious!

Ideally to dislodge that 5-5 MECH unit and then rout the rest could be doable.
But now with my lightweight attack I've popped a 2 delay in that hex...
To use the almost encircled infanteries for the 5-5 attack?

I am pondering and studying since a while and I am awfully undecided.




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< Message edited by AlbertN -- 2/4/2022 12:53:01 AM >

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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/4/2022 1:15:08 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T103 - Voronezh sector continued

The 'southern' bit seems okay, for now at least. The rear courtyard is secured BUT how wise it is to keep the line considering the 20+ nominal hordes to the east ...

That is one of the next steps to be decided.

That mechanized unit has retreated aptly on the pointe of the Soviet present advance ... which thus is factually not 21 but still 16 or 17 maybe.

Should I hammer it with the SS from the north?

Already in the southern attack anything that was somehow operational was thrown in - including the weak Hermann Goering and even an Infanterie Division with 2 CV...

Edit: Air supply was flown between the two images to up some the CVs of the Panzertruppen.




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< Message edited by AlbertN -- 2/4/2022 1:19:51 AM >

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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/4/2022 1:49:06 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T103 - Voronhez, P. III

The plan unfolded somehow smoothly enough.

I deemed the Panzer-Stacks to be able to beat 2 different hexes, and I've been 'lucky' that a Guard Corp retreated into the other hex to attack.

Another decent panzer division approached to check better what was in the 3rd hex - that had 1 Guard Corp retreat into.

But at this stage I lack adequate units to launch an attack on that hex and hope to beat it.

Now the last bit is about how to position the defences. Some extra air supply was flown to bolster the line but ultimately the whole situation is precarious.

It was decided on the spot to strip Italy already of 2 Panzer Divisions, flattening to a pure 100% its Ground situation. They'll take 2 turns to arrive to the map though, and then they need to get shipped to the front. But as seen above they're 96-98% TOE units, with full compliment of trucks.




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/4/2022 2:15:53 AM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T103 - Scavenging Reserves

I am kind of worried as in the Voronhez sector certainly successes were achieved, but the Panzerwaffe there rested a full turn and then triggered in action.
Half of the Panzer Divisions are at 'joke' level with lesser than 6 CV now. Some of them were well spottable.

While the Soviet Horde has stellar numbers.

Thus I am checking what else I can scrape from other TBs.
The Reserves are the first pick obviously! It's called 'Reserve'.

But mostly I am doing this specific reply to show that units in the reserve have their trucks.

This Mechanized unit is litterally combat ready (Even if one may expect them to be ... better in morale and all with 53 wins and 2 losses!).

I keep everything in Refit in the Axis reserve except AA pratically or stuff I do not badly need.

But as Axis you've no reason not to keep stuff here in Refit.

You want your stuff refitted here because it does not take away freight from the battlefield! Even if you need to rail stuff back to the front later on you know here it will get refitted!




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/4/2022 2:24:46 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T103 - Moscow Sector

Woe and pain ... attack failed!

I kind of cannot explain it myself here, there is the canal - yes.
I wanted to overdo and sent 3 divisions across it to do this attack. Expecting it to win.

That translated in a morale hammering beyond oblivion for the German divisions that being still high in Morale - too high for the National Morale, suffered a plummet.




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/4/2022 2:49:16 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T103 - Rubynsk

The 19th Panzer seized a Russian depot and HQ - capturing the Army Commander there! Then trying to isolate again the Soviet units ... crashed itself against a Guard Division in the swamps...

The cheap solution failed, and 3 of the once isolated Russian divisions are attacked... dang ... they get away with pretty relatively low losses!
One of them even under 1000 casualties.

The cavalry corps holds at first and then retreats ... and then as that one retreated it seems the mobile forces manage to seal the pocket again, now that space was made. (Or better ZoCs were removed!).

3 corps pocketed - I assume this time it will hold.




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/4/2022 3:02:16 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T103 - Summary

Trucks - the finer weather and the '43 repair rate seems to have deeply benefitted - at first glance at least.

The gap of the on map trucks is 15k only from 50k that was at the start of the year.
Though - and that is a big one - I'll get soon a batch of Italians that I'll have to decide if and how to refit.
All manpower and armaments are Italians... trucks are from a shared pool.

On the other hand all these coming Italians are CVs for Italy that can free up more Panzer Divisions!

OOB - numbers are favorable to the Axis, I cannot deny that. The Soviets keep to the 5 M. I am not sure exactly -why- or well I've some suppositions but the root is about the previous campaigns. When I look at history, the 'macro' history, between '42 to '43 the Soviet offensive that was successful was against Axis minors while here the Soviets tried a headfront attack on German lines. The Soviets gained ground (like in Mars - or the scenario the Red God of War) but have not accomplished crushing victories like Stalingrad. In this case there is the (correct from my perspective) situation that the Soviets are not able to wrestle at the end of '42 with the Germans yet and achieve crushing results.
But this is my impression playing German. Now it may be summer '43, but anywhere I've minors the frontline buckles in no time IF there is adequate pressure. Not that grievously where I've Germans.
Still with -just 5 Million Soviets- they can exert immense pressure by massing and leaving other sectore barebone due to their insane mobility.






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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/4/2022 8:23:35 AM   
Stamb

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

NM is badly misnamed but the concept is so spread over the code its not feasible to rename.

In the end, its a measure of training that new recruits are getting, which is why units tend towards it. Even in non-combat situations there is manpower churn, including the sort of in and out that is not directly modelled in the game.
...

If NM is not actual morale then units morale drop when they are not fighting at all makes this situation even worse. For example there is veteran division with 20 wins - 3 losses. They just sit in lvl 1,2,3 forts without any actions around and lose their combat possibilities just because of ..., because of what? They don't need new replacements, as there is no activity. Maybe few men die because of attrition. But that's it. So actual veterans that went through `41 `42 are just having degradation in their skills for no reason as game morale is not representing their willing to fight.

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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/4/2022 9:08:12 AM   
loki100


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From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

NM is badly misnamed but the concept is so spread over the code its not feasible to rename.

In the end, its a measure of training that new recruits are getting, which is why units tend towards it. Even in non-combat situations there is manpower churn, including the sort of in and out that is not directly modelled in the game.
...

If NM is not actual morale then units morale drop when they are not fighting at all makes this situation even worse. For example there is veteran division with 20 wins - 3 losses. They just sit in lvl 1,2,3 forts without any actions around and lose their combat possibilities just because of ..., because of what? They don't need new replacements, as there is no activity. Maybe few men die because of attrition. But that's it. So actual veterans that went through `41 `42 are just having degradation in their skills for no reason as game morale is not representing their willing to fight.


to be honest at one level I give up commenting on a cluster of AARs, its becoming constant complaints with no attempt to use the game systems. I realise its easy to constantly complain the game is pro-Soviet etc.

The point I made above is I am 18 turns ahead, I have 75% of the German infantry at least 5 over NM.

Now AlbertN has made different choices - and most definitely done better than I did - but that is the key, he's made choices - with consequences. Some of those good, some less so but that gets lost in the constant complaining about game mechanisms he disagrees with.

Yes NM is training/quality of recruits etc, that is what it is so there is little point pretending its something else.

So whats happening, well ongoing training is getting worse (all the Lehr formations are being sent to the front), new officers and NCOs are less well trained, being chucked into combat much earlier than the German army did in 1941, and yes there is a manpower churn below that of the formal replacement system.

If you have a stretched supply line (choices and consequences again) then you are more likely to miss the admin rolls that protect you from slipping towards NM, if you have good supply lines and deliberately set out to restrict the tempo of combat then - surprisingly - you significantly slow the slide towards NM (or to make the same point - choices and consequences)

_____________________________


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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/4/2022 9:20:12 AM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		The point that I am trying to say is that if unit, that is out of action, is sending his high morale men to a pool, and gets lower quality one instead, then this high morale men that were send from a unit are not appearing anywhere on a map. They just disappear like trained pilots.

Your description about supply is also a valid point. But it also shows a problems. It is the same issue like VP. You have a city in `41, lets say Tula, that you can capture, but if you do so - then Soviets most likely will take it back during a winter and get easy +6VP (or some other value for a time bonus). It makes no sense.

Same with morale. To have better morale you have to stop at Smolensk/Bryansk/Kharkov/Stalino. Makes no sense for me either.

All of this complains about Soviets being too strong are for a reason. Did you see any complain about too strong Axis? I did in arty patches 0.6 0.8 It was fixed. Will we have fix for the Soviets? I hope so. But I don't think it will happen any time soon. Unless there will be more and more topics and messages about it.

Game need a balance and right now it is not enjoyable to play as an Axis side, especially if you compare it with a Soviets (imho).

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Post #: 527
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/5/2022 12:59:11 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Rubynsk Pocket

Here I believe the northern offensive has reached its climax, and virtual epilogue.

The Rubynsk Reservoir has been reached and 3 Russian Corps have been trapped.
The pocket has been valiantly held; the 19th Panzer withstood a first assault before to buckle in, with a loss of 70ish AFV and other assets; while the 8th Panzer and 3rd Motorized held grounds for two assaults with negligible losses at the cost of many Soviet lives.

The sung regimenting down of the 18th Army begun, and the 'elite' 1st Armeecorps has been withdrawn from the sector to be issued elsewhere (Probably % for Italy to free up panzers though!).
Newly formed cavalry regiments will be issued as strategic reserves for the 18th Army - its commanding officer is not happy to have lost 5 quality Infantry divisions over time and getting in turn pratically 2 cavalry divisions. (1 division and 3 regiments)

The Volga will be a nice boundary to keep through the '43 summer up there assuming the front does not buckle elsewhere!

I am not even sure if a continuous line of regiments is needed up there BUT I still dread how the German line can collapse in front of a cavalry infiltration.




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/5/2022 1:14:17 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Moscow Sector 'Miracle'

Here the worst was being expected after having got a 'Hold' result the previous turn with a bucket of damage elements.
But it seems the Germans stiffened the defence and withstood the well expected counterattack from the Soviets - which surprises me and ... of which I am pretty happy because it spared me the added losses of retreating across a river!

At times I feel that the 'more' ... the worse it may be.
Soviet troops here fought like peashooters, their HPE in general was not above 0.5 for any type of ground element they came in with. It's like they are so many that they struggle to cooerdinate and cooperate - which makes sense to me and I think it's a mechanic in place to avoid German troops to be simply smoked on the spot.

Frankly Soviets should not be able in general to dislodge a hex with 3 German divisions in good shape (yes a single Hold result does not mean they're trashed); including an Elite one (the Sturm); especially when there are hexes with a single division elsewhere to attack (even if maybe more fortified).

As peculiar / curious things:

Soviets are not really ready for a grand scale offensive here - the largest gun they have is the 122mm M-30 here; sure they've 230 of them but they are short of larger calibers.

Soviet Cavalry Squads are the thing that hit the most in this combat, with 0.5 HPE. Higher than the KVs and the Guns! (But I suspect a hit of the cavalry squad is not as hurtful!)

The German 7mm Pak97/38 AT Gun is the thing that had the most HPE. Curious, for an Anti-Tank gun when the enemy AFV presence is limited but I believe they just fire at anything!

The Germans 7.92 PzB 39 AT-Rifle has a 0.0 HPE (It should be more 0.01 as 206 of them hit 2 times total). That weapon system has a pattern of uselessness for all I've seen across time.








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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/5/2022 1:36:38 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Artificial Morale decline continues

Even where there is good supply in general the Morale of a unit gradually normalizes if it is kept mostly static.

Morale tests or fatigue tests or supply tests, sooner or later they get failed, and morale drops. And drops and drops further.

Another example of a unit, that also somehow must have suffered heinous losses to have Rifle Squads at that low experience? While some infantry guns are 80+ experience?

As players can see supply here is not a problem, there is a tall stockpile in Kalinin, and beyond in other depots.

Some argue about this or that but I shall make a clear example:

El Alamein for the Axis. Troops there certainly were in a strained logistic situation. The truck trip of the supplies started in Tripoli! No railroad here, and Italian Navy was using Tripoli as main port (and dreaded to risk it to Tobruk to shorten the logistics). Benghasi at times was used. Admittedly Tobruk and Benghasi were smaller than Tripoli as ports too.

But the Axis troops sitting at El Alamein, for the duration of the time they just 'watched' each other without grand operations ... heck ... with WITE system their morale would plummet down each single turn.
It means that the troops somehow lose will to fight, forget how to fight, and so on. Just because they have low supplies or are worn down.

The system should be that 'low supplies = lower CV' as direct multiplier, not that somehow the troops 'forget how to fight' (because that's how it is Morale here, how good a unit fights).

Then the Brits should have had a walk in the park over the Axis at El Alamein after X turns of extremely poor logistics and not instead having barely scraped together a victory out of a massive superiority in mens, guns and tanks and everything.

Example over - there are ways to fix it but I believe the system is entirely intended how it is right now, and not acknowledged as a pretty big problem as I feel it is.
Morale should not be touched at all by fatigue or supplies (only by isolation or combat defeats and wins); the CV should or how a unit perform in battle. But it's a temporary condition hence it should affect only the CV and per-turn performance.
The moment 'morale' is lost - that is a permanent thing til a new battle is won.

Also the experience needs tweaking if it drops so much. because veteran cadres teach up new ones; and if I understood the game mechanic has also a cycle of men disabled that return - thus veterans.
There is a way to gain experience - yes - without combat, and that is nice and good.
But with utmost chances replacements should have a variable experience between NM (that is the baseline of training / manpower quality at hand, etc) and Unit Morale (to not overcomplicate it to ground element average experience) since some replacements may be pure fresh recruits coming out of boot camps, and others rugged veterans that were hospitalized or sent to spend some time in license at home!




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/5/2022 1:42:30 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Voronhez Sector

Here the Russians chilled down and took a more modest approach to have less exposed units; and I feel that's how they should play the '43 in general.
Or at least that's how I'd play it.

Pure and simply frontal assaults with sheer brute force. Then again this game ought to be considered special since a 5M Soviet Army in '43 is a rare sight and in general it is more bloated up.

Plus in general it is somehow easy to 'counter encircle'. In my Soviet game is just managed that in T7 - the Panzers encircled some Soviets, and the 'pocket' turned out to be a link for a counter-encirclement and subsequent routing of German units that had nowhere to retreat... (That's in '41 yes).

Here I think this is a good approach. Pound frontally. Pound again. Even if the Germans hold immediately they get exhausted fast and hard and Soviets have no logistic issues as documented across many AARs.






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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/5/2022 1:49:20 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Caucasus

Italian Division Sforzesca got mauled pratically scott-free from the Soviets. Otherwise the Soviets pursue without seeking interesting engagements.

South on the cost the Soviets bring forth a division ... it seems a weak one.
Training for the Rumanians one would think.

But due to the 'Morale Drops' it is kind of redundant to train Romanian morale up because it goes back down to 45.
Done that, had 53-54 morale divisions that anyhow just had it gradualyl go back to 45 or even under that.

Heck during '41-'42 winter Romanian units sitting in Kerch - receiving regularly supply and being in a nice and cozy fort, just out of fatigue morale checks (or whatever else they undertake) had their unit morale go down to 38! (The other end of the strait was Russian controlled)






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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/5/2022 1:52:57 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T014 - Don River Bend

The Soviets chilled down this turn - only 4 attacks there, lightweight attacks even.
I think at least 3 if not all 4 of them were Hasty ones.

The losses not very significant at all, even the Romanian cavalries retreated in decent order - the worst was one that lost 1000 men and 50 guns.

All in all a 'tragedy free' turn - at least on the Soviet front-, but I suspect the Soviets are resting their forces and reconstituting their armoured and mechanized corps.




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/5/2022 2:07:51 PM   
AlbertN

 

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From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Allies invade Sicily!

Roughly a month and half after the North Afrika campaign had conclusion the Allies land in Sicily.

It is in the OKW hopes that the 7 Panzer Divisions and 1 Panzergrenadier there crush the Allied beachead on the spot but we all know that is not to happen! (Even because sensibly they'd be scattered across Italy)

I feel I need to read better the event chain to see when the Italians factually will surrender at this point.

Italian surrender is of the 8th September, historical date wise.

Here it's 13th June (Turn wise); historical date for Operation Husky was 9th July. So roughly 1 month ahead of time the Allies are.

Which means Italian surrender should happen roughly in 8 turns (Start of August pretty much).

In 2 turns I am receiving the batch of Italian troops that were destroyed in North Afrika.
To refit them or not - that is the question!
I also feel that the fact the ARMIR has not been smashed in Russia could bolster some Italian morale (I litterally mean the people morale in the homeland!)

I've never played a single player WITE2 game that far ... I suspect there is a REMOVE or DISBAND of all the Italian troops and that then some units are formed up as RSI units.
It may be of interest other mechanics where Italian units may fight on / remain loyal to the fascist regime.

Ultimately trucks are the main difference, and what remain in the Italian arsenal, assuming Italian manpower will see some kind of reboot and reset... I'll make a post with Italian armament situation I think, which can also can help me keep memory and track of things.




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< Message edited by AlbertN -- 2/5/2022 2:12:21 PM >

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Post #: 534
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/5/2022 2:29:21 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Italian Pools

I believe this portion is somehow 'unpolished'.

There are type of equipments that are not assigned to stuff for instance. But I impute that to the Italian OOB being manifestly lacking in terms of 'smaller scale' units (Support Units) in general because - let's face it - it's not relevant here and nor was in War in the West.

I even see some Do217 fighters given as Night Fighters but I doubt they'll see action!
Alas I've no control over the air units that are not in the Reserve TB.

I suspect also Italian production may be well limited here but once there shall be a real African theather - this whole system will collapse like a castle of cards as soon as Italian divisions start to melt away at the first show of a British unit.

Digressions for the future.

Will all these stocked goodies here get seized by the Germans on surrender?
Will they get blown up and disappear?
Would a RSI Italian Armour formation be created even? I am in disbelief the Italians have ... 500 of their excellent 'Semovente' (which was actually a factually good design, one of the very few) in various versions in stock!

I may have a look later in single player to which RSI units are there for the Vistula to Berlin scenario; and see how Italian production is handled.

I assume the logical way is that there is some random roll for stuff stocked to see where it goes.

Historically Germany seized an huge amount of equipment in Italy and anywhere they disarmed the Italian troops. But in the Balkans an amount of the equipment was directly captured by the partisans of Tito (or pretty much handed to them).







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Post #: 535
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/5/2022 3:13:12 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Caucasus

The weak division the Soviets sent forward was ... just mauled.
I am not sure why MSAG did this move here? To bait me to waste CCPs?

I've ran air recon in the sector widely and broadly and it does not seem that there is some build up of an armoured or mobile spearhead to go ball-of-bowling mode into these Romanians to encircle the Maikop sector.

And by now the perspective is that Italians are disposable, I doubt strongly I may somehow retain the Alpini as fighting force!
But as the Soviets are thirsty for victories, I assume, for more Guard Promotions whenever the time comes - they should be giving me hell in this sector in general.




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(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 536
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/5/2022 3:18:34 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Operational Musings

Here at first glance I can see I may play pesky.

This is the pure gameplay style that Soviets have in '41 when performing a retreat!
Germans can benefit of admin movement up to two sides of that Cavalry Stack (the 15-15).

Depending on 'ground scouting' can also see if to embrace them and potentially force a rout; or simply have them retreat through my ZoC.

And then I can dance further away!

A localized attack without excess of risk - I feel - and this is how in '43 the Axis should try to play. At least in this game here.
I've the High Watermark, sizeable army and I am just in need of capitalize on these situation.

I do not know how much manpower the Soviets gain per turn from their centers, but stuff like that division hammered for free above is nothing the Soviets can afford in '43 I believe.

Let's see here what I can accomplish.




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(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 537
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/5/2022 3:38:15 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Operations step by step

Step 1, ground recon. I know I want to attack here so I do not bother to regiment down to explore and recon around. I just moved divisions right off the bat. (Hyla taught me that!)

That cavalry division there is ... experience / morale to gain pretty much.

Step 2, further ground recon. Relatively weak units spotted. Attacks are made. Note that the cavalry division with abysmal combat value has not even left a combat delay on the hex. That airborne guard division just got pounded, so may be in disarray. I am not sure IF I will invest it with a mobile unit as I can.

Step 3, see with what you can attack - that 2-12 Division is pratically exhausted, but it also has 64 Morale and could use a boost up, plus some extra experience for its riflemen. It will be added to the attack not out of the need of the CV but to make it more competitive for whenever it is to heal up! Similar reasoning will be applied to a bucket of other units all around the place here. -- But I also expect the Soviets to be somehow tamey for another turn as they keep licking wounds and rebuild CCPs. (In the end it will be moved on the SS unit as it will have 9 MP still instead of 7 - gracious admin movement)

Step 4, this is pure regimental ground recon, made by the Cosseria 2nd Regiment! (Funny that Italians split in 3 regiments still as they had 2 in their divisions but I understand that's a coding limit and barrier pretty much - for simplicity sake) - and it seems that stack contains a HQ, the Soviet 6th Army, ontop of the 2 Mechanized corps. Argh ... another tempting target. Nonetheless the Italians scouted, and are to run back at the western side of the Don!






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(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 538
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/5/2022 4:13:59 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Operations on!

Step 1: The SS embraced the Cavalry stack - there was a HQ on its own there that got displaced. I am puzzled and I feel that was a mistake. Possibly a mistake that also caused the next combat outcome. I've Panzers for 'sale' there as they freshly arrived from other TBs but I'll use these Panzer Replacement battallions to shore up the defences -after- I've fought but before I get air supply on the region. It is important to have some form of fluctuating 'reserve' on SUs in the OKH so that you can bolster situations on need. (At the end of the turn I may have a check around, bring back into OKH a few SUs from this or that sector where they're not that needed - the OKH is kept in a location with tons of Freight. Presently Minsk, but Warsaw or Berlin can do too. I like it closer atm due to rolls)

Step 2: I was predicting here an amazing victory but not that amazing. At this stage I suspect that Rifle Corp was linked to the just displaced HQ. Since the HQ went **** all away of I do not know how much, the test penalties were massive and this unit had an awful combat behaviour. Nonetheless 3 armoured divisions trampling all over a rifle corps in open plains without a single fort is ... asking for it. That Corps was the one hindering the smooth pulling back of the other SSs embracing down below.

Step 3: The original main attack. The Axis CV is not 56 in truth since troops come from a different bucket of armies. A victory but ... here instead I am somehow disappointed, the Cavalries pratically got away with ... pretty modest losses for the situation they were in! Now, onward, let's fix that other HQ with the 2 Mechanized units. The Romanian cavalry here is just to provide a ZoC for the retreat - assuming it causes extra losses, I think it does (I may be factually wrong here...)

Step 4: The attack came and I was expecting better results. A 1:1 tradeoff for guns and not even a 2:1 for soldierhood... only the AFV ratio is good 4:1! The Mechs retreated just of 1 hex but I suspect stronly I am short of units still capable of pursueing and hitting them; not to talk having enough movement to fall back to a not too exposed position!

Of 2 HQ displaced this time no leader was killed.

I've to head to dine out though so that's where I save up to server and have a look to the forums before to unplug myself from the PC!




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(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 539
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/6/2022 12:16:28 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T 104 - Rubynsk sector

Got back and fixed the Don River sector front. I went out after having left the troops as they attacked - I do not feel too safe there but as said I expect the Soviets to be licking wounds for another turn. I may be wrong!

Hopping to the other extreme of the front, the 1st Armeekorp has been issued off already the last turn.

Regiments down, some hexes are seized to act as buffer - the Soviets have Cavalry Corps in wait not afar though.
Given these can be both offensive assets or mobile defenders for a tactical retreat. There is very little to fight for up there right now!


The kessel is swiftly liquidated and ulterior 'sniping' attacks take place, including across the Volga, hitting any unit that looks weak.
A total of 0 Holds from Soviet end but I noticed that MSAG has long term plans here or at least longs for a window of opportunity open.
A single swamp hex at the western side of the Volga has been not just kept but even reinforced with a massive Guard Rifle Corps - that on the paper has 40 CV for attack (and a big X as defence)




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< Message edited by AlbertN -- 2/6/2022 12:17:17 AM >

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