Slitherine

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One thing that is not modeled in the game is the increased effectiveness of DECM, Chaff, and towed Decoys from stealth aircraft.

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ORIGINAL: Craigkn

I did a few searches, and read older threads on the topic - most dating from 2015 - but I felt it was worth bringing this up as a discussion point. I am playing with an AAW scenario - eight U.S. fighters vs. eight Russian Su-57's. I have tried the matchup with F-22A (2020 version) and F-35A (2021 version). The scenario is the U.S. group patrols a box, and the Russians approach. Both groups are not using radar. The blue side is supported by a E-3G, which is largely irrelevant as it cant detect the Su-57's anyway.

Nearly always the Su-57's detects the U.S. fighters first via IRST, and often gets the first shot off. The F-22's are blind until they detect incoming missiles, and by then its often too late. The F-35A's do better usually, because they have IRST. The lack of IRST on the F-22A seems a massive oversight. The F-35's seem to do a little better once combat starts, and in some tests detected the Su-57's first. Most F-22 vs. Su-57 playthroughs result in the Russian side winning. The F-35A's usually win their battles, but still loose 50-80% of their aircraft.

Playing around with EMCON settings, using radar just gets the U.S. fighters killed faster, as the Russians detect them much sooner. I never engaged the Russian's radar, as it seemed unnecessary as they were kicking so much ass.

I feel this is realistic, and the key factor for victory will be how many decent 5th gen fighters you can deploy. Dropping the F-22's IRST capability as a "cost saving" measure just meant that the U.S. wasted hundreds of billions of dollars on a 5th gen fighter that cant fight other 5th gen fighters. The F-35 seems to be vastly superior in its capabilities, but still suffers a high kill:loss ratio - in that case, the economic output of the nation, in terms of how many 5th gen fighters it can deploy, will be the deciding factor.

Playing around more, I replaced the F-22's with F-15EX Eagle II with the Tiger Eyes Pod (IRST), and they did better than the F-22's.

So my questions are this: How do you employ F-22's vs 5th gen fighters? I dont see a good path to success here.

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ORIGINAL: Craigkn

This is my very basic "Black Sea 2022" scenario. NATO can either deploy F-35A or F-22A for the CAP mission. Russia is set up to launch its Su-57's into the same zone. I tested this with a forward picket line of DARPA TERN UCAV, which have the BRITE Star II IR sensor, which did successfully detect the inbound bogies often. The TERN's fly slow, so you need to manually (edit mode) move them into position, but having a drone picket line (with IRST) helped detect the Su-57's early. You need to macro it a bit, and flag the un-identified targets as hostile, but then the F-35's engage and the battle generally plays in NATO's favor. The side that detects the opponent first generally comes out on top, which is obvious but really brings me back to the F-22A - its lack of IRST is "fraud, waste, abuse" in my opinion.

Modern militaries need cheap, disposable, IRST sensor swarms that can act as a picket line to detect hostile 5th gen fighters. I am not aware of any projects leading to that outcome, but it seems needed when the real threat is VLO aircraft. Also, as an aside, in a contested battlespace - with area denial systems like the S-400 - anything not VLO is obsolete.

(note this scenario has my monster Black Sea SAG that I proposed in an earlier thread, but for the purposes of this testing, its parked off Turkey and not involved. I did send the Su-57's after it once, the AEGIS systems detected the Su-57's early and downed all the bogies before they could get any ASM launched. AEGIS is a "area denial" system on par with S-400, it seems)

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ORIGINAL: Craigkn
...
The side that detects the opponent first generally comes out on top, which is obvious but really brings me back to the F-22A - its lack of IRST is "fraud, waste, abuse" in my opinion.
...

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ORIGINAL: Boagrius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Craigkn

This is my very basic "Black Sea 2022" scenario. NATO can either deploy F-35A or F-22A for the CAP mission. Russia is set up to launch its Su-57's into the same zone. I tested this with a forward picket line of DARPA TERN UCAV, which have the BRITE Star II IR sensor, which did successfully detect the inbound bogies often. The TERN's fly slow, so you need to manually (edit mode) move them into position, but having a drone picket line (with IRST) helped detect the Su-57's early. You need to macro it a bit, and flag the un-identified targets as hostile, but then the F-35's engage and the battle generally plays in NATO's favor. The side that detects the opponent first generally comes out on top, which is obvious but really brings me back to the F-22A - its lack of IRST is "fraud, waste, abuse" in my opinion.

Modern militaries need cheap, disposable, IRST sensor swarms that can act as a picket line to detect hostile 5th gen fighters. I am not aware of any projects leading to that outcome, but it seems needed when the real threat is VLO aircraft. Also, as an aside, in a contested battlespace - with area denial systems like the S-400 - anything not VLO is obsolete.

(note this scenario has my monster Black Sea SAG that I proposed in an earlier thread, but for the purposes of this testing, its parked off Turkey and not involved. I did send the Su-57's after it once, the AEGIS systems detected the Su-57's early and downed all the bogies before they could get any ASM launched. AEGIS is a "area denial" system on par with S-400, it seems)

Not sure if you missed my last post but, again, I would hold off on making sweeping conclusions until CMO actually simulates the ... future iterations[/link].

quote:

ORIGINAL: Craigkn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Boagrius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Craigkn

This is my very basic "Black Sea 2022" scenario. NATO can either deploy F-35A or F-22A for the CAP mission. Russia is set up to launch its Su-57's into the same zone. I tested this with a forward picket line of DARPA TERN UCAV, which have the BRITE Star II IR sensor, which did successfully detect the inbound bogies often. The TERN's fly slow, so you need to manually (edit mode) move them into position, but having a drone picket line (with IRST) helped detect the Su-57's early. You need to macro it a bit, and flag the un-identified targets as hostile, but then the F-35's engage and the battle generally plays in NATO's favor. The side that detects the opponent first generally comes out on top, which is obvious but really brings me back to the F-22A - its lack of IRST is "fraud, waste, abuse" in my opinion.

Modern militaries need cheap, disposable, IRST sensor swarms that can act as a picket line to detect hostile 5th gen fighters. I am not aware of any projects leading to that outcome, but it seems needed when the real threat is VLO aircraft. Also, as an aside, in a contested battlespace - with area denial systems like the S-400 - anything not VLO is obsolete.

(note this scenario has my monster Black Sea SAG that I proposed in an earlier thread, but for the purposes of this testing, its parked off Turkey and not involved. I did send the Su-57's after it once, the AEGIS systems detected the Su-57's early and downed all the bogies before they could get any ASM launched. AEGIS is a "area denial" system on par with S-400, it seems)

Not sure if you missed my last post but, again, I would hold off on making sweeping conclusions until CMO actually simulates the ... future iterations[/link].

I did - and the links to that discussion were interesting, I hope its patched soon. I think that the IR model needs a comprehensive review, as the example of a small electric UAV having a relatively huge rearward IR signature might not be accurate. Modeling IR signature's accurately will give aircraft the opportunity to show differences in technology, which should benefit more advanced NATO equipment for the time being. However, in that case, we are racking and stacking capabilities between a small number of VLO aircraft which also have IRST - non VLO aircraft are still missing the bus, and are susceptible to area denial weapons (S-400, Aegis, etc).