Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4

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Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 9/20/2020 7:57:46 AM

Raver508

Posts: 208
Joined: 3/26/2006
Status: offline

Hi all,

A little team of myself, Secadegas and sPzAbt653 has come together to update and enhance Mark Stevens' (aka Odenathus on some forums) epic scenario: "Europe Aflame".

The original scenario was designed by Mark Stevens & Ulver Nielsen with help from Trey Marshall. It covers WW2 in Europe and North Africa from 1939 to 1945. It was upgraded to some extent for TOAW3, but never brought fully into the TOAW4 era - so that will be what this project is about. Mark himself put a huge number of hours into supporting this scenario, including maintaining a dedicated forum back in the day. It had a quite large and dedicated following, and Mark's very sad passing earlier this year prompted us to update this.

The idea is that the update will consist of 4 parts:

1. Updating EA for the TOAW4's new features, including:

- the new naval rules and sea interdiction (which also affects the role of EA's extensive coastal fortifications of course)

- the new turn sequence

- TOAW4's approach to tactical turn management

2. Having a look at the events, which were limited by CoW's 500 event limit and might be able to be improved on.

3. Updating the player briefing

4. Potentially introducing a limited AI to the scenario to allow single player.

All comments and thoughts welcomed.

Post #: 1

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 9/21/2020 4:26:21 AM

jupiter999

Posts: 57
Joined: 8/13/2015
Status: offline

Really looking forward to AI addition~

(in reply to Raver508)

Post #: 2

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 9/24/2020 8:48:22 PM

Raver508

Posts: 208
Joined: 3/26/2006
Status: offline

Thanks Jupiter. Not easy to make a good AI for a game like this, but this scenario has never had >any< prior to now.

(in reply to jupiter999)

Post #: 3

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 10/2/2020 12:12:09 PM

secadegas

Posts: 275
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline

This upgrade to TOAW IV continues in good pace and at this moment PO design was been initiated.

Stay tuned...

(in reply to Raver508)

Post #: 4

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 10/3/2020 5:05:33 AM

Raver508

Posts: 208
Joined: 3/26/2006
Status: offline

And in the meantime .... I noticed that there dont seem to be any after action reports for Europe Aflame in the TOAW4 forums, but there are heaps for TOAW3 (and earlier for that matter). Here are links to a few on these forums for anyone interested in getting more of an idea of what the scenario is all about:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3379154

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3511260

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3300422

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3240300

(in reply to secadegas)

Post #: 5

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 10/24/2020 5:53:38 PM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline

I'm so glad to hear this scenario is being converted! Thank you sacadegas &co. The new monster ww2 scenarios look awesome, but would take at least 10 of me to manage. Maybe a team is how they're intended. This is more my scope.

(in reply to Raver508)

Post #: 6

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 10/24/2020 11:21:20 PM

Raver508

Posts: 208
Joined: 3/26/2006
Status: offline

Good to hear macgregor. Drop me a line if you'd like a game when its ready.

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 7

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 11/10/2020 7:36:33 AM

Raver508

Posts: 208
Joined: 3/26/2006
Status: offline

Attached is the updated Europe Aflame scenario - updated and optimised for TOAW4. Please do try it out if strategic level WW2 scenarios are your thing, and post any comments and suggestions for improvement, bugs, etc.

Enjoy!

Edit: Apologies everyone. Please use this file instead. We found a small problem with the initial upload in that the scenario didnt default to the designers pre-set game preferences.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Raver508 -- 11/13/2020 3:13:42 AM >

(in reply to Raver508)

Post #: 8

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 2/17/2021 5:39:53 PM

secadegas

Posts: 275
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline

Just giving the scenario more visibility. It definitively deserves...

(in reply to Raver508)

Post #: 9

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 3/2/2021 9:04:00 PM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline

Thanks Raver! I'm just curious. Is there going to be anything done with the naval forces?

(in reply to Raver508)

Post #: 10

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 4/23/2021 5:11:21 PM

Great_Ajax

Posts: 4774
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Alabama, USA
Status: offline

Not to be nit picky. But I was the one who originally created the scenario many years ago. Teams have come along and have done a marvelous job improving upon it.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raver508

Hi all,

A little team of myself, Secadegas and sPzAbt653 has come together to update and enhance Mark Stevens' (aka Odenathus on some forums) epic scenario: "Europe Aflame".

The original scenario was designed by Mark Stevens & Ulver Nielsen with help from Trey Marshall. It covers WW2 in Europe and North Africa from 1939 to 1945. It was upgraded to some extent for TOAW3, but never brought fully into the TOAW4 era - so that will be what this project is about. Mark himself put a huge number of hours into supporting this scenario, including maintaining a dedicated forum back in the day. It had a quite large and dedicated following, and Mark's very sad passing earlier this year prompted us to update this.

The idea is that the update will consist of 4 parts:

1. Updating EA for the TOAW4's new features, including:

- the new naval rules and sea interdiction (which also affects the role of EA's extensive coastal fortifications of course)

- the new turn sequence

- TOAW4's approach to tactical turn management

2. Having a look at the events, which were limited by CoW's 500 event limit and might be able to be improved on.

3. Updating the player briefing

4. Potentially introducing a limited AI to the scenario to allow single player.

All comments and thoughts welcomed.

_____________________________

"You want mercy!? I'm chaotic neutral!"

WiTE Scenario Designer
WitW Scenario/Data Team Lead
WitE 2.0 Scenario Designer

(in reply to Raver508)

Post #: 11

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 4/23/2021 7:04:20 PM

secadegas

Posts: 275
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Not to be nit picky. But I was the one who originally created the scenario many years ago. Teams have come along and have done a marvelous job improving upon it.

Trey

Welcome back, Trey!

I arrived to TOAW on 2001 and you're already a well recognized scenario designer.

Congrats for this true gem. Definitely one of the best (if not the best) of TOAW scenarios.

(in reply to Great_Ajax)

Post #: 12

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 7/12/2021 11:53:16 PM

Mark Breed

Posts: 342
Joined: 9/4/2003
From: Orange County, CA
Status: offline

Suggestions
1. Increasing percentage chance that Italy declares war rather than leaving it as an option for the German player. Mussolini wanted to get in and make the new Roman Empire. Letting him sit out the war should not be an option.
2. Increasing percentage chance that Yugoslavia joins the allies. There was a reason that Hitler found it necessary to invade.
3. Percentage chance that Finland surrenders conditionally (i.e. once Soviets reach second border closest to Helsinki) so that history can have a chance of repeating itself.
4. Provide reason for the German player to invade Norway. One better than 3 supply percentage. For example, if Germans don't invade by X date, the Allies can invade and are given access to the Baltic after taking it.
5. Russian artillery corps show up too early in the war given their effectiveness in the game. None should show up until after 24 months of Russia being invaded. And, maybe have their strength built up by having certain guns in the corps not being available to later in the fighting (later replacement availability).
6. Restrict airborne drop range.
7. Add Allied supply depots in France and the Low Countries to allow for possible raids or landings in Western Europe prior to 1944. And/or, add additional supply depots besides Normandy for 1944.

Just some quick thoughts.

Regards,
Mark

< Message edited by Mark Breed -- 7/14/2021 7:53:48 PM >

(in reply to secadegas)

Post #: 13

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 7/22/2021 12:23:45 PM

tellhimhowitis

Posts: 2
Joined: 7/22/2021
Status: offline

All really sloppy design ideas, that actually negate the very purpose the scenario exists.

Thanks for you input though, however useless.

(in reply to Mark Breed)

Post #: 14

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 7/30/2021 3:34:43 AM

Mark Breed

Posts: 342
Joined: 9/4/2003
From: Orange County, CA
Status: offline

At least I use my real sign-in when calling out BS and don't create a new fake one to slam a person.

< Message edited by Mark Breed -- 7/30/2021 3:42:19 AM >

(in reply to tellhimhowitis)

Post #: 15

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 2/6/2022 12:11:12 AM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline

This is a good scale for me. A lot units, but not too many too manage, for a human or the AI. Though I'd really like to play this in MP. Since a side can save the turn before finishing. I imagine the savefile can be emialed to a fellow allied player to finish before mailing the finished turn to the opposing side, thus allowing more than 2 people to play. It'd be nice to be able to mod the naval forces to include ship classes.

(in reply to Mark Breed)

Post #: 16

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 2/11/2022 10:19:26 AM

fulcrum28

Posts: 660
Joined: 2/28/2010
Status: offline

Hello, I am playing this as AXIS against Allied AI, and I noticed that we start 1st July 1939, and even all countries are in peace and Germany cant declare war yet based on theater options, Luftwaffe air groups are being bombed by RAF, and German units are being bombed with artillery from French border. Is it designed as intended or a bug when this scenario was adapted to TOAWIV from TOAW III?

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 17

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 2/11/2022 11:05:50 AM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

Needs a cease fire event?

_____________________________

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I�m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn�t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to fulcrum28)

Post #: 18

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 2/11/2022 11:43:32 AM

fulcrum28

Posts: 660
Joined: 2/28/2010
Status: offline

this occurs in the first turn. I dont see any cease fire event as theater option. on 1st July 1939.

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 19

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 2/11/2022 11:46:39 AM

fulcrum28

Posts: 660
Joined: 2/28/2010
Status: offline

Soviets attacks Baltic states and Finland to, but that is historical. My concern was with the naval combat, and artillery bombing and air attacks on German units.

(in reply to fulcrum28)

Post #: 20

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 2/11/2022 2:19:33 PM

Curtis Lemay

Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fulcrum28

Soviets attacks Baltic states and Finland to, but that is historical. My concern was with the naval combat, and artillery bombing and air attacks on German units.

What version of TOAW are you using?

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to fulcrum28)

Post #: 21

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 2/11/2022 2:20:52 PM

golden delicious

Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fulcrum28

this occurs in the first turn. I dont see any cease fire event as theater option. on 1st July 1939.

The old scenario, as I recall, had an immediate cease fire which was effective from the beginning of the game. Evidently for whatever reason this event isn't occurring in the current version.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to fulcrum28)

Post #: 22

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 2/11/2022 2:26:27 PM

golden delicious

Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Though I'd really like to play this in MP. Since a side can save the turn before finishing. I imagine the savefile can be emialed to a fellow allied player to finish before mailing the finished turn to the opposing side, thus allowing more than 2 people to play.

I've done this a couple of times, it can be really fun. The question is what do you do about multiple rounds; if you have three players on your team and you get five rounds, that means the turn has to be sent fifteen times just for one force.

When we did it last the rule was each player only moved and set up attacks for the first round, then there was a GHQ player who executed the remainder of the turn, as well as assigning reserves etc. This made it move quite smoothly but at times it felt like the GHQ player (me) was taking over a little bit too much.

The other thing with a WWII scenario is how do you split the commands? There is only one front to manage really for the first 50-100 turns so do you have the other players just sit on their hands waiting? Then when things do get going often the front commanders will be just passing for turn after turn because the action is elsewhere- although this can be realistic; as I understand it the Axis offensives in North Africa occurred almost because Rommel was bored rather than to fulfil any particular strategy.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 23

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 2/11/2022 3:42:34 PM

fulcrum28

Posts: 660
Joined: 2/28/2010
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Version 4.1.0.40

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)

Post #: 24

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 2/11/2022 10:10:52 PM

secadegas

Posts: 275
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fulcrum28

Hello, I am playing this as AXIS against Allied AI, and I noticed that we start 1st July 1939, and even all countries are in peace and Germany cant declare war yet based on theater options, Luftwaffe air groups are being bombed by RAF, and German units are being bombed with artillery from French border. Is it designed as intended or a bug when this scenario was adapted to TOAWIV from TOAW III?

Sorry to disappoint you but this isn't a human vs AI scenario unless you're willing to support at lot of abstract.

(in reply to fulcrum28)

Post #: 25

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 2/11/2022 10:16:34 PM

secadegas

Posts: 275
Joined: 5/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: fulcrum28

this occurs in the first turn. I dont see any cease fire event as theater option. on 1st July 1939.

The old scenario, as I recall, had an immediate cease fire which was effective from the beginning of the game. Evidently for whatever reason this event isn't occurring in the current version.

EA never had a cease fire at the start. Just theatre options to exercised by human players.

(in reply to golden delicious)

Post #: 26

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 2/12/2022 3:05:54 PM

golden delicious

Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: secadegas

EA never had a cease fire at the start. Just theatre options to exercised by human players.

Of course, silly me. The scenario really doesn't suit the PO in particular because of the potential to move units around a lot between fronts.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to secadegas)

Post #: 27

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 2/12/2022 10:14:36 PM

sPzAbt653

Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline

I think we did a bit of a PO. The Briefing I have says:

Adding a Programmed Opponent (PO)
Previously, Europe Aflame has not had a programmed opponent. It was generally felt that a game of this complexity and with so much opportunity to deviate from the historical path,
would not lend itself to a PO. All of that remains true, but we�ve added a PO to this version of the scenario. It wont be a military genius, and will struggle to adapt to the strategic picture, but it should at least fight back in each theatre. On that basis you can ignore some of the dire warnings in the original briefing material and we no longer actively
discourage players from playing solitaire. We havent had a lot of time to test the PO, though, so would welcome feedback on it.

So maybe we should look into doing something with this issue?

(in reply to secadegas)

Post #: 28

RE: Updating Europe Aflame for TOAW4 - 2/22/2022 12:41:18 AM

tigercub