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RE: Axis allies useless?

 
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RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/12/2022 2:27:46 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		yeah, I noticed that it is ratio of killed:pow, thus edited a post :)

(in reply to Nikel)
Post #: 31
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/12/2022 2:59:24 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I am extremely skeptical that this type of ratio is any indicator of the 'National Average of Troop Quality and Training' value for this game should be.

There are far too many factors to compute about 'dieing fighting' and 'surrendering to the enemy'.

At that stage it's like saying that Japanese soldiers should have NM of 100 across the board as well due to their fanaticism? We'd all know that it is a wrong number though.

(in reply to Nikel)
Post #: 32
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/12/2022 3:03:00 PM   
Nikel

 

Posts: 355
Joined: 3/24/2009
Status: offline 		Morale is not the only factor in the game, I guess.

It is just a way to compare one ally with another, are they considered the same in the game?

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 33
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/13/2022 8:16:12 PM   
DarkHorse2

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 2/4/2022
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikel

The ratio killed:POW may give us some idea of who were better fighting or more brave at least. The problem is with the Romanian and Slovakian armies with so many missing, where they killed or POW?

...

Ignoring the MIA, clearly Finns were the best and Hungarian the worst.

...

Considering MIA as killed, I suppose this is more correct. The Romanians improve a lot, also Slovakian but were already very good. Finns and Slovakians preferred to die before surrendering.

...



In general, the Finns troops were widely regarded as the best of the Axis Allied. But they were also careful to not over-extend themselves and fight close to home, or in territory they had experience and a vested interest in.

In contrast, Romania only had a real interest in Bessarabia and Transylvania. Outside of that, the troops could generally care less. So, as they drove further and further into the Soviet Union (due to ongoing pressure from Hitler via Antonescu), their supply situation grew even worse than their German counterparts as the Germans demanded the lion share of the logistical bandwidth.

The fact they did not outright revolt is amazing.

---

Now Italy, they had no business at all in the Soviet Union when North Africa had not been secured.

There were factors outside of the loss tables that played significant role.

Also, in regard to the MIA stats, unfortunately record-keeping was sporadic at best throughout WWII. However, MIA and POW numbers are generally representative of combat retreat results.



(in reply to Nikel)
Post #: 34
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/13/2022 8:18:19 PM   
Zebtucker12


Posts: 117
Joined: 1/8/2017
Status: offline 		The alpini would have been of better use in the cacasus than in the desert sadly they where sent to the open stepp....

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(in reply to DarkHorse2)
Post #: 35
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/14/2022 12:31:10 AM   
DarkHorse2

 

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Joined: 2/4/2022
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebtucker12

The alpini would have been of better use in the cacasus than in the desert sadly they where sent to the open stepp....


I always felt they were fairly respectable of the Italian troops. Those, the Folgore, and a couple of the Armor / Motorized, IMO, were decent. ( https://comandosupremo.com/folgore-at-el-alamein/ )

The alpini could have been sent to the Balkans to free up other German formations there I suppose?

But Italy had no stake in the Soviet Union, other than trying to curry favor with Hitler - which troops at the unit level are not motivated by. (was not like Italy was gaining direct control of any of the spoils obtained)

(in reply to Zebtucker12)
Post #: 36
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/14/2022 2:42:10 AM   
Zebtucker12


Posts: 117
Joined: 1/8/2017
Status: offline 		According to facist ideology they where destroying the Bolsheviks enemy.
Among the common soldier especially the southern ones it was often viewed as a litteral crusade against an atheistic antichrist.

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(in reply to DarkHorse2)
Post #: 37
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/14/2022 11:38:48 AM   
Nikel

 

Posts: 355
Joined: 3/24/2009
Status: offline 		The same with the Spanish Division Azul (250th blue in the game), many or all were "falangistas", highly motivated and went to Russia to fight Communism.


They were also very good in the ratio killed:POW, 1:0,08, similar to slovakians and next to the finns.

According to Stanley Payne and the Fundación División Azul: Killed 4954. POW 372.





< Message edited by Nikel -- 2/14/2022 11:42:38 AM >

(in reply to Zebtucker12)
Post #: 38
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/15/2022 1:17:47 AM   
DarkHorse2

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 2/4/2022
Status: offline 		The Blue Division was so good it was considered Wehrmacht for all practical purposes.

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Post #: 39
RE: Axis allies useless? - 2/15/2022 1:31:05 AM   
DarkHorse2

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 2/4/2022
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebtucker12

According to facist ideology they where destroying the Bolsheviks enemy.
Among the common soldier especially the southern ones it was often viewed as a litteral crusade against an atheistic antichrist.


Nah, you have been drinking too much of the kool-aid. The average Italian soldier could care less about the ideology of the month. Nor were they motivated by any crusade against Bolsheviks.

Look at their historical major opponents - France, Britain, Greece (none were Bolshevik).

quote:

Eager to share in a Nazi victory and gain support for his own cause, Mussolini aligned Italy with Germany. Mussolini believed that by defeating the western democratic powers, Great Britain and France, he would be free to consolidate the empire he coveted.


Much more interested in establishing a modern Roman empire than anything else.

(in reply to Zebtucker12)
Post #: 40
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