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Magical Airplanes - 2/17/2022 12:08:59 AM   
RAF

 

Posts: 76
Joined: 6/4/2006
Status: offline 		I would like to know how these planes keep getting past CAP.



*****************************************************************

Morning Air attack on TF, near Tarawa at 136,128

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 23 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B7A2 Grace x 48

Allied aircraft
Martlet IV x 9
F4F-3 Wildcat x 5
F4F-4 Wildcat x 31
F4U-1 Corsair x 6
F6F-3 Hellcat x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
B7A2 Grace: 13 damaged
B7A2 Grace: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
APD King, Bomb hits 1, on fire
APA Custer, Bomb hits 15, and is sunk
DD Jarvis, Bomb hits 1, on fire
APA Henry T. Allen, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
APA Arthur Middleton, Bomb hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage

Allied ground losses:
Guns lost 47 (39 destroyed, 8 disabled)
Vehicles lost 63 (36 destroyed, 27 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
47 x B7A2 Grace bombing from 5000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-2 with F4F-4 Wildcat (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
VF-3 with F4F-4 Wildcat (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Raid is overhead
VF-42 with F4F-4 Wildcat (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 25000.
Raid is overhead
VF-6 with F4F-4 Wildcat (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 30000.
Raid is overhead
No.882 Sqn FAA with Martlet IV (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
No.896 Sqn FAA with Martlet IV (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
No.898 Sqn FAA with Martlet IV (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 25000.
Raid is overhead
VF-35 with F4F-3 Wildcat (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 30000.
Raid is overhead
VMO-155 with F4F-4 Wildcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
VMF-213 with F4F-4 Wildcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 25000.
Raid is overhead
VMF-222 with F4U-1 Corsair (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 36000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 36000.
Raid is overhead
VMF-441 with F4F-4 Wildcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 30000.
Raid is overhead

**************************************************************************

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Tarawa at 136,128

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B7A2 Grace x 48

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 18
F4U-1 Corsair x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
B7A2 Grace: 1 destroyed, 14 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
DD Lardner
CLAA San Juan, Bomb hits 1
CA Chester, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
APD Waters
CLAA Prince Robert, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
APD Fox
APD Alden, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
48 x B7A2 Grace bombing from 5000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-3 with F4F-4 Wildcat (10 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Raid is overhead
VF-6 with F4F-4 Wildcat (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
VMF-222 with F4U-1 Corsair (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 36000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 36000.
Raid is overhead

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CLAA Prince Robert
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CA Chester
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring APD Alden

*****************************************************************

Morning Air attack on TF, near Nauru Island at 127,128

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 21 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B7A2 Grace x 53

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
B7A2 Grace: 4 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
APD Kane, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
CLAA San Juan
APD Schley
APD John D. Edwards
APD Rathburne, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
DD Grayson
xAP Morinda, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage

Allied ground losses:
148 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 6 destroyed, 22 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 8 (2 destroyed, 6 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
53 x B7A2 Grace bombing from 5000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-2 with F4F-4 Wildcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(12 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 8 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
VF-42 with F4F-4 Wildcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(12 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 8 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes

*****************************************************************

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 64 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 17 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B7A2 Grace x 48

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 96

Japanese aircraft losses
B7A2 Grace: 2 damaged

No Allied losses

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 33

Aircraft Attacking:
48 x B7A2 Grace bombing from 5000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-2 with F4F-4 Wildcat (19 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
19 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Raid is overhead
VF-3 with F4F-4 Wildcat (12 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 13 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000 , scrambling fighters between 18000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VF-42 with F4F-4 Wildcat (21 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
21 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 18000.
Raid is overhead
VF-6 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 28 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes

********************************************************************

Afternoon Air attack on Nauru Island , at 127,128

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B7A2 Grace x 48

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 89

Japanese aircraft losses
B7A2 Grace: 3 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 7

Aircraft Attacking:
48 x B7A2 Grace bombing from 5000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-2 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
16 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
VF-3 with F4F-4 Wildcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 24 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
VF-42 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 18 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
VF-6 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 27 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes






Post #: 1
RE: Magical Airplanes - 2/17/2022 12:17:12 AM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		You might think about setting your CAP's altitude a bit lower. You have some of your CAP up in the stratosphere! Just a thought.

(in reply to RAF)
Post #: 2
RE: Magical Airplanes - 2/17/2022 12:19:27 AM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Yep, those Graces are coming in at 5000 feet.

_____________________________


Created by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 3
RE: Magical Airplanes - 2/17/2022 12:37:01 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		There's no reason to have CAP anywhere above 20k and most should be way lower - 8 to 12k. If you're defending ships the attacks will come at 5k and 10k for dive bombing. Get your fighters down there where the fight is. Those planes at 36k can barely see their own ships let alone any bombers coming in.

_____________________________



(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 4
RE: Magical Airplanes - 2/17/2022 12:38:35 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		And don't underestimate those Graces. I'm surprised none of them were dive bombing.

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Post #: 5
RE: Magical Airplanes - 2/17/2022 12:45:39 AM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

And don't underestimate those Graces. I'm surprised none of them were dive bombing.

It looks like the Graces were set to bomb at 5K thus they hit from level bombing, as you need to set a minimum of 10K to have a dive. As has been pointed out in other threads, the glide bombing option was eliminated for the game. It looks like the Japs were trying to sneak in under the US radar and hit quickly before the high flying CAP could react. It would appear that they were highly successful.

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 6
RE: Magical Airplanes - 2/17/2022 12:52:04 AM   
WEXF

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 9/7/2020
Status: offline 		It almost seems like you were flying CAP at altitudes to deal with sweeps from enemy fighters.
WEXF

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 7
RE: Magical Airplanes - 2/17/2022 12:53:50 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		If you're putting your CAP way up there to deal with sweeps it's a mistake. You don't put up CAP to accommodate his sweeps and giving him fighters to shoot down. You put them up to defend those ships and the base. If he's sweeping way up there his sweeps won't have much effect on your CAP if it's where it's supposed to be.

_____________________________



(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 8
RE: Magical Airplanes - 2/17/2022 12:57:11 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

And don't underestimate those Graces. I'm surprised none of them were dive bombing.

It looks like the Graces were set to bomb at 5K thus they hit from level bombing, as you need to set a minimum of 10K to have a dive. As has been pointed out in other threads, the glide bombing option was eliminated for the game. It looks like the Japs were trying to sneak in under the US radar and hit quickly before the high flying CAP could react. It would appear that they were highly successful.


I meant I'm surprised some didn't come in at 10k to dive, they'd get more hits. But in this case they would've caught more CAP too so I guess it was clever going in low. Those CLAAs didn't do much.

_____________________________



(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 9
RE: Magical Airplanes - 2/17/2022 1:39:25 AM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		You also have a long distance (9 hexes?) between those two contacts, unless that’s how far those CVs moved between AM and PM phases.
The defending CAP arrived over the ships when the Graces were already on top of their targets.

You could try setting most CAP to range 0, or LRCAP over a friendly task force as the target, and set range 0 so it flies a zero hex radius over that task force.

< Message edited by jdsrae -- 2/17/2022 1:41:34 AM >

_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no SolInvictus): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 10
RE: Magical Airplanes - 2/17/2022 11:59:40 AM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		As noted your problem is most likely delta altitude, your cap is set too high.
There is a lot of time to intercept as noted in your reports.

There has been a lot written about cap on the forum.

To run a forum search you are looking for two things:
The best way to set up your cap and the best way to defeat the enemy’s cap.

When you run your forum search on cap you need to set the parameter to before one year.
In the search look for certain individuals who have superior knowledge in this area.

In this case you should first look and see if any of these individuals have commented on this:

TheElf……. Ian Kibler who was the Air Team Lead.
michaelm…..Michael McFarland who was the Air Team Coder (Programmer)
Alfred……...Usually extremely helpful if he has commented.

TheElf:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1682972

“See above. Based on the performance of your CAP aircraft I would pick it's band
with the best MVR (Maneuver) rating. Above that you are chancing an encounter with an
enemy that outperforms you. Better hope you meet with an altitude advantage.”

“Technically DBs only release at 2k'. Their attack starts at their ingress altitude.
I would set your CAP to it's best altitude based on it performance, and hope your RADAR helps.”

“TBs are still triggered by the 5k' altitude or lower. Set you CAP around 5-6k'. Hope your RADAR helps.”

TheElf:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1637483

“We attacked the UberCAP problem in several ways...Not to get too general”

“1. Air Attacks are resolved by Raids now rather than by the Target. Stricter Coordination rules
combined with player selected altitudes will make it more difficult for Bombers with widely
varying performance to be over the target at the same time. Smaller raids.”

“2. CAP is determined by a %CAP as usual, but not all these A/C will be overhead ALL the time.
Only a fraction will be up and in a position to attack. The rest will be either rearming, refueling,
or on standby to relieve the Airborne CAP.”

“3. CAP relies on detection of a raid. The type of a/c and the raids speed will give a time til target which
will be checked against by the CAP's Rate of climb. This among other things will determine how successful
the CAP is getting into a position to attack effectively. Obviously Radar will help with "First Detection".”

“4. A/C will be less available. The days of having 100% serviceable rates are over.
You are now in the true South Pacific.”

The Outlaw:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3044625

“I said flying "under the radar" improves the odds of avoiding high cover CAP. It actually very much depends
on exactly what altitude the CAP is at, whether layered CAP is being employed, the rate of descent/ascent
of the particular fighter model and whether anything else is attracting the attention of the CAP.”

“Therefore the best instance of flying "under the radar" is when other strike aircraft are also flying
at a significant delta altitude, or the enemy has concentrated its CAP in anticipation of meeting
a high flying incoming strike.”

“In any case, dr.hal's post #26 is whether flying at too low a level, the strike aircraft would miss their target.
The aircraft will fly off towards their target on the basis of DL and choose the targeted ships based on DL.
Factors such as weather, smoke, disruption cause by CAP etc can impact adversely but low altitude does not.”


Note that this is a complex game…..You have to search, study, work, practice and gain experience.
This most important thing is to think, think a lot and then think some more on what you are doing.

Do a search on what is “layered cap”



< Message edited by Trugrit -- 2/17/2022 12:00:22 PM >

(in reply to RAF)
Post #: 11
RE: Magical Airplanes - 2/19/2022 11:00:38 AM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

The Outlaw



HEHE,


The Outlaw ®





< Message edited by SuluSea -- 2/19/2022 11:05:14 AM >

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"There’s no such thing as a bitter person who keeps the bitterness to himself.” ~ Erwin Lutzer

(in reply to Trugrit)
Post #: 12
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