RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results

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RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/15/2022 10:46:28 PM

DarkHorse2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hossjww30

I certainly understand some losses but losing every available tank on turn 1 after one battle? Especially on turn 1 when the Soviets had their head up their ass.

Yep.

WiTE2 forces you to be very selective on using Axis Panzer formations against Soviet Tank divisions, especially in Army Group South where there are ample Soviet Tank formations to contend with.

What I find further frustrating is that Panzer losses are not diluted when adding additional supporting infantry to the attack (motorized or other wise).

You quickly find that it becomes more advantageous (loss-wise) during the onset of Barbarossa to attack without any armor when confronting Soviet Mech or Tank forces. (feels weird to me too... especially considering Soviets had hardly any tanks equipped with radios at the onset)

Whatever Soviet Tank forces that are attacked seemed to be completely zeroed-in (and uniformly in range) solely on the attacking panzers at the exclusion of anything else.

< Message edited by DarkHorse2 -- 2/15/2022 10:49:15 PM >

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Post #: 31

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/15/2022 11:33:57 PM

AlbertN

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But ideally a Panzer Division is already 1 panzer regiment and 2 motorized regiments in OOB terms!
In the game it just splits in 3 'panzer regiments'.

(in reply to Stamb)

Post #: 32

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/16/2022 2:36:10 AM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hossjww30
This game is garbage. None of this was caught in playtesting before release? How long has this game been out now? I've been playing it for a few hours and already realize the combat results are garbage.

quote:

They basically charged people $79 to add roads (which have almost no affect on the game), screw up the air management system and add depots. Yes that's what I want to do - spend hours building depots and managing supplies.

Civility is part of the forum rules here. If you've just started playing the game and got a combat result you don't understand, then coming and asking (and ideally posting a screenshot and/or a save file) is the way to go. Jumping to these types of attacks isn't.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 33

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/16/2022 2:39:24 AM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
hoss - you picked a fight with the best Soviet Tank Division at the start of the war. It was fully equipped with T34s and KV1s. It was experienced and fully trained. In an actual battle account in early July that division was able to totally trash two panzer divisions who were unable to damage the Soviet tanks. When the 25 KV1s ran out of ammo, they were able to destroy another 15 to 20 Axis tanks by RUNNING THEM OVER!

The reality at the start of the war was that the German armor was a collection of out-dated equipment that was not up to the caliber of the Soviet T34 and KV1. The Germans were suffering from Victory Disease - what they had and fielded were able to defeat everyone else so why change it?

A large majority of the 41 Axis tank losses in the game are from disrupted elements which represents break downs and worn out equipment. Many of these can come back eventually with the rest being scrapped for parts. Infantry, on the other hand, were very effective against Soviet armor at this time because of the lack of Soviet training in combined arms tactics. A Soviet Tank division had very few, if any, infantry with it. Tanks did not have the visibility to counter infantry without supporting infantry. Even mechanized infantry, once dismounted, is better against the Soviet tanks in 41 than the under gunned, under armored German tanks.

Thank you Carl, for your constructive post.

We're listening and reading, but I think it's very important that players understand that all the historical results are possible in WITE2, including the ones that were outliers. In 1941, the Axis did lose some battles and the Panzer Divisions did lose a lot of tanks, including in battles.

With all that said, although these results are historical plausible and with precedent, if the original poster would like to provide more information, ideally a screenshot or a save where we can see the combat results in detail, we can certainly take a look.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 34

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/16/2022 2:42:23 AM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

Just a few thoughts on Axis 'tank preservation' and the use of the Panzers in general.

1) I think to an extent players are still sometimes following the WITE1 'meta' where the Panzer divisions were by far and away the strongest units. So your typical Axis offensive set piece operation would have the infantry units doing the initial attacks, the motorized divisions following up and clearing a path and then the Panzer divisions exploiting and forming the encirclements. I'd suggest that in WITE2 you are better using the Panzers to clear the path and beat up on units that have already retreated and are more vulnerable to the firepower of the Pz divs, and the more resilient Mot divisions to hold the encirclements further ahead.

2) Linked to the above I think that some players are too reluctant to take tank losses. So rather than commit them into offensive battles in situations of their own choosing, they are keeping them out of combat, which alllows them to build up the high MPs/high CPPs that can lead to them becoming a bit of a 'paper tiger' that then underperforms when they are committed deeper behind Soviet lines and have to take part in defensive battles on terms dictated by the Soviet player.

3) Linked to point #2 and to what carlkay has said above I think that some Axis players, when evaluating what constitutes 'sustainable' tank losses, are overly concentrated on the production figures and don't factor in the numbers of AFVs that will eventually come into the active pool from damaged elements. The process by which damaged elements within a unit eventually come back as ready elements is detailed in the manual but in summary it is a multi turn process and so you won't immediately benefit from it in 1941

4) I think there is a little bit of a lack of imagination in how players have been using the panzer units. For example in the AARs I've not seen a lot of stacking a Pz regiment with a Mot regiment (by doing this you spread out the targets for massed Soviet armoured counterattacks as opposed to keeping a Pz Division together and offering a single target) and I've not seen a lot of discussion of using the Panzers as an armoured reserve to combat defensive reserve activations from the Soviet side.

I don't dispute that there may be an issue with tank losses. But before immediately asking the devs to make changes I would encourage people to look at their own gameplay and evaluate whether there may be ways they could use the Panzer units differently/more effectively.

Thanks Sammy, I agree with your points and we're always open to look into concerns (as we have been), but we'll always be aiming towards historical results whenever possible.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 35

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/16/2022 3:00:07 AM

DarkHorse2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

But ideally a Panzer Division is already 1 panzer regiment and 2 motorized regiments in OOB terms!
In the game it just splits in 3 'panzer regiments'.

You are correct. At this stage of the war, a broken down Panzer Division would have 1 Panzer regiment and 2 Motorized Infantry regiments.

As the war progressed, the Motorized Infantry regiments would be converted to Panzer Grenadier regiments.

In contrast, WiTE2 just breaks a division down into roughly 1/3s.

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 36

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/16/2022 11:58:07 PM

hossjww30

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How do I paste a screen shot in this MS-DOS forum?

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Post #: 37

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/17/2022 12:05:44 AM

hossjww30

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Turn 1 combat result:

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 38

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/17/2022 12:09:24 AM

hossjww30

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Here is my panzer division after one attack in week 1. Six ready tanks. So now the division is useless for weeks while it rebuilds.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 39

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/17/2022 12:10:16 AM

DarkHorse2

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Looks about right. Great illustration of the current AFV combat system situation.

In this case, given those odds, would have been better to not attack with the 13th Pz entirely.

What roughly appears to happen is that all of the AFVs, collectively, fire at the opposing AFVs for 'X' number of rounds or until they are completely destroyed. Only once all the opposing AFVs are gone, will they switch over to soft targets.

Using this system, it would not have mattered if you added in another 5 inf divisions to try to take some of the heat off of the 13th Pz, the 13th is still toast anyways.

< Message edited by DarkHorse2 -- 2/17/2022 12:34:28 AM >

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Post #: 40

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/17/2022 1:22:59 AM

MechFO

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Result of the combat system that lines devices up in line and then lets them shoot each other up.

In reality in every case a Panzer Division would be the much prefered unit to deal with enemy armour. It had a much bigger tool kit to deal with enemy tanks and their crucial advantage of superior tactical coordination, training and situational awareness compensated for the stat disadvantages in ways that the in game experience system can not reflect.

The Motorized Divisions were extremely vulnerable in offensive operations due to their unprotected trucks. That the meta has become for infantry, motorized or foot, to take on enemy armour or perform breakin operations is an indication that something somewhere is not working as it should.

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Post #: 41

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/17/2022 2:22:57 AM

DarkHorse2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

Result of the combat system that lines devices up in line and then lets them shoot each other up.

In reality in every case a Panzer Division would be the much prefered unit to deal with enemy armour. It had a much bigger tool kit to deal with enemy tanks and their crucial advantage of superior tactical coordination, training and situational awareness compensated for the stat disadvantages in ways that the in game experience system can not reflect.

Agree.

The combat mechanics have devolved to a point where they are well beyond bizarre.

Other game systems have given armor bonuses beyond their standard CVs to reflect the shock, overrun and break-through potential. (Europa series, Atlantic Wall, Wacht Am Rhein, etc... )

http://spigames.net/MovesScans/Moves40/WERheinGPM40.pdf

I suspect something is needed in WiTE2 to provide a proper incentive and rewards for proper armor deployment and use.

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Post #: 42

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/17/2022 9:19:16 AM

Stamb

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This is example from wite 1 and multiplayer game that I am watching.

Pazners are really able to hold their ground.

Imagine leaving panzers like this in wite 2.

You would get this:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135309

P.S

They used some checkbox in game settings with improved CV calculations or something, thus CV are higher for both sides.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Stamb -- 2/17/2022 9:22:24 AM >

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Post #: 43

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/17/2022 1:04:08 PM

MechFO

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Reflecting on it a bit more, early Soviet motorized formations should not have the +10 NM modifier. If anything it should be a malus. Or the beginning Mech and Tank Div should have very low morale.

They were unable to handle mechanized formations of this size early in the war and the multi Division coordinated offensives involving 10s of thousands of men and thousands of tanks in few hundred square kilometres we see in AAR's are fantasy.

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Post #: 44

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/17/2022 1:13:56 PM

Stamb

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Add to this fantastic supply system that allows Soviets to use supply priority 4 for most if not all units

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Post #: 45

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/17/2022 1:19:35 PM

AlbertN

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Soviets early Motorized stuff do not have bonus. They get a +5 somewhen in '42 I believe and get up to +10 in '43.

The issue you speak of is often due to the Soviets having a huge mobility out of admin movement AND more MPs than the Germans due to their stellar supply system.

A German infantry division advancing in Soviet hexes pay 3 MP per hex, so... at BEST it does 5 hexes without attacking, assuming all the checks and whatnot went smooth.

Soviet sitting division with 120% supplies has 16 MP, can march 5-6 Hexes, do a deliberate attack, and pull back a few more hexes assuming a German unit is on the edge of the Soviet controlled hexes.
That is what grants the Soviets their capability to gather such massive punches.
And due to the IGO-UGO system Germans are sitting duck (but that is in general for anything and Soviets too are sitting ducks in some situations where they ought not to be).

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Post #: 46

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/17/2022 1:33:08 PM

EwaldvonKleist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

This is example from wite 1 and multiplayer game that I am watching.

Pazners are really able to hold their ground.

Imagine leaving panzers like this in wite 2.

You would get this:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135309

P.S

They used some checkbox in game settings with improved CV calculations or something, thus CV are higher for both sides.

Soft factors (fatigue, ammunition) and the combat resolution have a much higher impact on final CV and losses than in WitE1. Therefore it was possible to run wild with motorized divisions (panzer divisions suffered more due to damage to tanks from moving) and still have decent combat value to hold pockets.

In some way the WitE1 combat was decided by who was able to line up the most ground elements in the beginning, modified by leader rolls and element experience/morale, irregardless of other soft factors. WitE2 fortunately is more subtle, even if the combat model still requires finetuning.

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Post #: 47

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/18/2022 4:47:15 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hossjww30

Turn 1 combat result:

Thanks for this. I've discussed this with Joel and Gary and we agree that some additional changes are necessary. There are already a lot of checks that go on under the hood to disadvantage low experience/morale poorly led units, but there are also advantages to the defender and you'd likely see a very different result if the Soviets were attacking you. From an operational perspective, it's much more ideal to breakthrough/encircle and let them try to break out.

As you may know, we did a major revision of the combat system not too long ago to address some issues and that improved the combat overall significantly, especially for 1943+. However, the added lethality of armor combat isn't working as well in 1941.

With all that said, we agree that this result is outside of what we'd see as historical. We're going to wrap up the current update process with an official update. After that, we'll try a few changes to better reflect the breakdown and coordination issues the Soviets had, especially in 1941 with their mechanized/tank divisions. That will be in a new experimental public beta as some point in the next couple of weeks for folks to try out and give us feedback one.

While history had a very wide range of possible results, we're on the same page as far as continuing to make adjustments where we can to make sure that all cases are giving results squarely within that range.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 48

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/18/2022 9:15:20 PM

Stamb

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Awesome. Take a look into this AAR https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135309 and you will see what Soviet players can actually do with their armor/mech formations even in the early turns. They should suffer massive penalties for attacking with 500 or 1000 tanks.

< Message edited by Stamb -- 2/18/2022 9:16:47 PM >

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Post #: 49

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/18/2022 9:18:45 PM

Stamb

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Some screens from that AAR:

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Post #: 50

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/18/2022 9:23:55 PM

Stamb

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Also while Erik is in this topic.

Please fix Soviet logistic system. It is completely unhistorical that they can use supply priority 4 for almost all of their units if not all, already from the start of the game.

Maybe add some penalties to it in `41. And then decreases that penalty in 42 and so on.

< Message edited by Stamb -- 2/18/2022 9:24:18 PM >

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Post #: 51

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/18/2022 10:26:52 PM

Jango32

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It's not going to be an easy fix because of the rule that units within a 3 hex distance can draw freight without using trucks. What happens in-game is that the Soviet player can place lots and lots of depots across the front line on priority 4 that will get filled up more and more as the front line gets closer to Moscow (NSS), and because of that aforementioned rule the Soviets can safely put everything on priority 4. What would be interesting to see is if from '43 onward when the Soviets start moving forward (or should be) they can still have everything on priority 4. I think it's possible because of the trucks they preserve from abandoning the south and using the 3-hex depot rule, as well as production & mainly lend-lease, but there's not enough data for it posted on the forums.

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Post #: 52

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/18/2022 10:27:26 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb
Please fix Soviet logistic system. It is completely unhistorical that they can use supply priority 4 for almost all of their units if not all, already from the start of the game.

Anyone can use Supply Priority 4. If you're saying they are actually getting far more supplies/ammo/fuel than what is historical, we can have that discussion. I'd like to see what you're seeing and some historical comparisons.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 53

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/18/2022 10:44:18 PM

ShaggyHiK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb
Please fix Soviet logistic system. It is completely unhistorical that they can use supply priority 4 for almost all of their units if not all, already from the start of the game.

Anyone can use Supply Priority 4. If you're saying they are actually getting far more supplies/ammo/fuel than what is historical, we can have that discussion. I'd like to see what you're seeing and some historical comparisons.

Regards,

- Erik

Again, I do not understand why this applies only to the USSR. In fact, the logistic support system does not allow adequate and rapid replenishment of divisions on the line of contact, even if there is a capacious warehouse and a good railway not far in the rear.

I have the opposite opinion about what Stamb said.
The Soviet Union was able to restore entire fronts with new divisions and men in a short period of time, but there is no way in the game to replenish divisions if they were defeated without being put into reserve.

The logistics system gives a lot of fuel and ammunition, and almost does not convert cargo from warehouses into people, guns and tanks. And this applies to both sides.

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Post #: 54

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/18/2022 10:49:11 PM

ShaggyHiK

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And I'm honestly tired of looking at every new Stamb post
where he accuses only the Soviet side of "good logistics", "efficient aircraft". At the same time, they do not understand that the logistics system is common for both sides, and it works the same for the USSR and Germany.
He accuses me of defending the USSR, but in fact he himself is looking for problems only for the Soviet side.

To be honest, his one-sidedness is starting to irritate me.

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Post #: 55

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/18/2022 11:12:31 PM

Stamb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

And I'm honestly tired of looking at every new Stamb post
where he accuses only the Soviet side of "good logistics", "efficient aircraft". At the same time, they do not understand that the logistics system is common for both sides, and it works the same for the USSR and Germany.
He accuses me of defending the USSR, but in fact he himself is looking for problems only for the Soviet side.

To be honest, his one-sidedness is starting to irritate me.

Like here?
Where I actually say that VVS perform too poorly in fighters to fighters battles?
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5140498

I can make a long list of what is wrong with current balance, but it was already said by multiple players, not only me, in multiple AARs.
Yes, I am making posts with this things to bring attention to that problems, as in AARs it is posted only once and then forgotten unless somebody else face the same problem. Like panzer performance, urban hex battles and so on.
Poor panzer performance was mentioned long time ago. And without this thread who knows if it would be revisited.

About "one-sidedness". ShaggyHiK, you are the person that is constantly defending Soviets. In any thread. They are always the best, the greatest. Check your posts on a forum.

While we are talking about supplies.
Yes, Erik, I wanted to say that is possible to use supply priority 4 for the Soviets without any damage to their vehicles pool. They can bring enough supplies to a front depots. And even with supply priority 4 there will be no long range traces to a depots in the back. I will try to find sources that will prove that there were ammo shortages at least in `41, but I'm sure that Soviets were not swimming in supplies like it is right now.

< Message edited by Stamb -- 2/18/2022 11:13:57 PM >

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Post #: 56

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/18/2022 11:24:39 PM

ShaggyHiK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

While we are talking about supplies.
Yes, Erik, I wanted to say that is possible to use supply priority 4 for the Soviets without any damage to their vehicles pool. They can bring enough supplies to a front depots. And even with supply priority 4 there will be no long range traces to a depots in the back. I will try to find sources that will prove that there were ammo shortages at least in `41, but I'm sure that Soviets were not swimming in supplies like it is right now.

I, but say that you are wrong that you attribute such a problem only to the Soviet side. The German war machine, already in 41, actually squandered its fuel potential and the Wehrmacht began de-motorization. When will Germany have fuel problems in the game?
Is the Soviet Union able to restore the front in the game if it loses ~500,000 people twice in encirclement after the first move?

The defense of Leningrad in game conditions is almost impossible if the German player does not do absolutely mediocre actions. The front line go far to the East from the real one, because the German tanks and motorized infantry almost do not lose mobility moving away from the warehouses?

The depot system currently gives too good indicators of the supply of ammunition, fuel and supplies, relative to real opportunities. And almost does not give replenishment. And this concerns both sides, and not just the Soviet one. Moreover, the system is more generous specifically for the German player.

To compensate for the good supply, it was necessary to introduce fines for the supply of German units, with payment at double the price.

< Message edited by ShaggyHiK -- 2/18/2022 11:30:21 PM >

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Post #: 57

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/18/2022 11:29:13 PM

Stamb

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Axis logistic is terrible in `41. Just try to play as an Axis. At least once. Leningrad is in a danger if Axis make good progress in first few turns. Later on it is a dead zone. Check AARs. Especially with a running Soviets ;)
Yep. Axis motorized forces always have 50 mp.
Please, just play as an Axis. And you will be ashamed of 50% of your posts about Axis. You are providing fake info.

Edit after your edit:
" And almost does not give replenishment"
And for some reason as an Axis player I have no problems with man replenishment if I am within 3 hexes range to a depot with supplies. Like in the North. Tanks are pretty hard to refit, but I don't have enough in a pool anyway.
Like this. In harsh winter. This is on map units.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Stamb -- 2/18/2022 11:40:51 PM >

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Post #: 58

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/18/2022 11:36:43 PM

ShaggyHiK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Axis logistic is terrible in `41. Just try to play as an Axis. At least once. Leningrad is in a danger if Axis make good progress in first few turns. Later on it is a dead zone. Check AARs. Especially with a running Soviets ;)
Yep. Axis motorized forces always have 50 mp.
Please, just play as an Axis. And you will be ashamed of 50% of your posts about Axis. You are providing fake info.

Edit after your edit:
" And almost does not give replenishment"
And for some reason as an Axis player I have no problems with man replenishment if I am within 3 hexes range to a depot with supplies. Like in the North. Tanks are pretty hard to refit, but I don't have enough in a pool anyway.

Play as the Soviets and try to replenish the tank division and the mechanized division, even if you have tanks in the pool.
Yes, even just try to replenish regular infantry if it has lost its guns. I'll tell you honestly, neither the 4th warehouse nor the 4th army priority, nor even a good commander, will help.

(in reply to Stamb)

Post #: 59

RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/18/2022 11:40:21 PM

Stamb

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline

Oh. I will play as a Soviets. Who would not like to play them? After I finish my Axis pvp game. No time for 2 games :(

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Axis Bias mod Fanboy
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5144537

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)

Post #: 60