Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Reduced US troop efficiency

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Campaign Series: Vietnam >> Features Suggestions >> Reduced US troop efficiency Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Reduced US troop efficiency - 2/17/2022 9:09:23 AM   
devoncop


Posts: 1304
Joined: 7/17/2006
Status: offline 		An idea that may already be being implemented for the expansion covering post 19967 is that US forces should really see reduced morale and general efficiency post Tet as the incoming draftees arrived much affected by anti war sentiment back home.

Insubordination was a huge issue after this point with discipline breaking down and many instances of Marines and regular infantry units even refusing to go on patrol when directly ordered to do so.

_____________________________

"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"
Post #: 1
RE: Reduced US troop efficiency - 2/17/2022 2:50:21 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		This will be a good chance to use the C class platoons!

_____________________________


CS Vietnam

More info: Facebook & CS Legion

(in reply to devoncop)
Post #: 2
RE: Reduced US troop efficiency - 2/17/2022 2:55:31 PM   
devoncop


Posts: 1304
Joined: 7/17/2006
Status: offline 		Great stuff....though maybe somewhat of a shock to US players used to the reliability of the 1965-67 platoons :-)

As an unreconstructed VC player this concerns me not one jot

_____________________________

"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 3
RE: Reduced US troop efficiency - 2/17/2022 3:02:03 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		Bahahahaah, of course, of course

_____________________________


CS Vietnam

More info: Facebook & CS Legion

(in reply to devoncop)
Post #: 4
RE: Reduced US troop efficiency - 2/18/2022 8:56:43 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Please list for us the battles the US lost in 68 to 72 due to low morale and lack of discipline?

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 5
RE: Reduced US troop efficiency - 2/19/2022 8:28:20 AM   
TomWalton

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 5/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Please list for us the battles the US lost in 68 to 72 due to low morale and lack of discipline?


Hm, difficult one (though we could also ask whether or not it mattered how many battles they "won", if in the end they lost the war?).

Much as I think CSVN is probably the best computer wargame I've ever played, I'm not sure that it really models the war at a scale where morale and discipline really make a difference. The scenarios have to assume the US forces have been willing to "go out on patrol". A CSVN scenario where discipline had broken down would have you trucking supplies round Da Nang or Cam Ranh Bay -- and possibly all squads beginning "disrupted" with low morale and then unable to move for 12 turns or more ;-) ! It would make a poor game!

Max Hastings, in his excellent Vietnam book, suggests that:

quote:

All the dollars, all the war, had failed to confer on the rulers of South Vietnam and their supporters three vital things: dignity, self-respect and sufficient human sympathy to achieve an accord with their own people. Absent these things, battlefield success counted for very little.


But I think you'd need a game on a totally different scale, modelling the whole war, to bring that sort of issue in.


(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 6
RE: Reduced US troop efficiency - 2/19/2022 9:14:22 AM   
devoncop


Posts: 1304
Joined: 7/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Please list for us the battles the US lost in 68 to 72 due to low morale and lack of discipline?


In the same book by Max Hastings mentioned above he describes quite clearly the decline in quality of such forces and specifically speaks of the overrunning of Firebase Mary Ann on the night of 27th/28th March 1971.
Manned by C Company of 1st/46th Infantry. He describes repeated refusals of combat by men of the 1st/46th including on one occasion by an entire company.

The OIC Col. Doyle though personally brave was unable to enforce discipline,and the Capt in charge of overnight security Capt Knight failed to post guards overnight "or reset tripwires and set Claymores,or to renew wire entanglements. Or to remain awake. Or abstain from alcohol and marijuana. Most of the designated guards were sleeping,playing cards drunk or stoned"

Discipline in the unit was apparently somewhat, though not considerably worse than many other similar units at this time.

After the base was overrun MACV's investigation found Knight guilty of dereliction of duty and found several other key men ineffective, Doyle was removed from Command and the Brigade Commander was sacked.

I think that gives you one example at least



_____________________________

"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 7
RE: Reduced US troop efficiency - 2/19/2022 12:11:03 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		From the end of the war for the US, you said 68 and on.

(in reply to devoncop)
Post #: 8
RE: Reduced US troop efficiency - 2/19/2022 2:11:19 PM   
devoncop


Posts: 1304
Joined: 7/17/2006
Status: offline 		You asked for battles lost by the US between 68 and 72 due to poor morale/ lack of discipline and I just gave you one.....

_____________________________

"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 9
RE: Reduced US troop efficiency - 2/19/2022 2:15:06 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Ya one, which does not a trend make.

(in reply to devoncop)
Post #: 10
RE: Reduced US troop efficiency - 2/19/2022 2:15:33 PM   
devoncop


Posts: 1304
Joined: 7/17/2006
Status: offline 		I can give you several others.

"The history of the Marine Corps legal branch records that fragging of officers by their own men had never been so widespread and the US Army records between 1969 and 1971 more than 600 incidents of such fraggings resulting in 82 deaths and 651 injuries". Hastings again.

" No witness doubted that from 1968 to the end , the effectiveness of American forces was in relentless decline...."it became progressively harder to persuade (Gen) Abrams' men to match the communists' commitment and warcraft, even in the interests of their own survival".

No one can argue some US troops continued to fight quite well but as a whole their effectiveness had declined consuderably since 1965 as the war weariness and draftee percentages in units increased so I was just suggesting that maybe strength and/or morale numbers of US platoons should be reduced in the CSVN expansion.







< Message edited by devoncop -- 2/19/2022 2:31:51 PM >

_____________________________

"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 11
RE: Reduced US troop efficiency - 2/19/2022 3:02:50 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		No you advocated that all US troops be reduced and that simply is not historical

(in reply to devoncop)
Post #: 12
RE: Reduced US troop efficiency - 2/19/2022 3:24:39 PM   
devoncop


Posts: 1304
Joined: 7/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

No you advocated that all US troops be reduced and that simply is not historical


I said "US forces" not ALL US forces.

There is a difference.

We shall agree to disagree.

Have a good day.


_____________________________

"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 13
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Campaign Series: Vietnam >> Features Suggestions >> Reduced US troop efficiency Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

2.031