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axis air questions - 2/19/2022 4:46:06 PM   
daj

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 3/26/2018
Status: offline 		New to WITE2 and running Axis on V.01.02.13. So far to turn 3.

1) Tried to run interdiction in small 3x3 boxes avoiding cities. Flew at 26,000 feet 3 days a week (loftflotte 1,2,& 4)but took over 600 flak losses (can't find any info in manual on flak altitude limits). Is it worth the losses for interdiction levels averaging about 2-3?

2) On turn 3 the soviet Chertkov airbase had over 50 bombers and over 200 fighters. Attacked that specific airbase with over 400 bombers three days (also ran recon n the same airbase 1 day before each bomber run). Net result 7 planes on the ground destroyed. Why is airbase attack so effective in turn 1 and not thereafter?
Post #: 1
RE: axis air questions - 2/19/2022 7:16:43 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Hi Daj, suggest you update to latest beta (*20)..

1st turn airbase attack (actually day 1) is devastating. After that it normalizes.. historically the Luftwaffe was able to surprise the VVS, it is added to the game as a special rule

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Post #: 2
RE: axis air questions - 2/19/2022 7:40:15 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		for the 1)
Air interdiction on clear hexes is almost useless.
Proofs:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5141454&mpage=3&key=

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Post #: 3
RE: axis air questions - 2/19/2022 10:31:26 PM   
DarkHorse2

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 2/4/2022
Status: offline
quote:

Why is airbase attack so effective in turn 1 and not thereafter?


It really should not be as extreme as it is. Or rather, post-day 1 airbase attacks should not be as bad as they are for the Luftwaffe.

Air base attacks were periodically and successfully conducted by the Luftwaffe against the VVS. But in WiTE2, it simply is not worth the costs involved.

There are some ongoing, unresolved issues with AC altitude and the pseudo-abstracted flak combat mechanics.

The manual states:

quote:

In air to ground combat (19.4) it is assumed that fighter
and tactical bombers with a mission altitude over 5,000’
will actually conduct their attacks at 1,000’.


Well, considering a Stuka's bomb release altitude has been cited to be 3,000 ft to as low as 1,300 ft, it is not clear what the ramifications of using the 1,000 feet mission altitude other than making them more vulnerable to flak.

quote:

A dive from 15,000ft (ca. 4,572 meters) to a release altitude of 3,000ft (ca. 914 meters) (usual for attacks against defended targets) took about 30sec, during which the pilot controlled his aircraft to hold the target in the center of his reflector sight.


quote:

This was just as well, because the pull-out put an acceleration of 6g on aircraft and pilot. Under such conditions one could not expect the pilot to perform complicated control sequences. Normal procedures called for a bomb release at an altitude of about 2,953 ft (900 m), which brought the Stuka down to about 1,312 ft (400 m) before it started to regain altitude.


Additionally, the high-low altitude bands for flak appears to be 20k feet.

quote:

Numbers displayed are between 0 and 9 to indicate
intensity of flak, with the left number being low/mid
altitude (below 20k feet) and the right number being high
altitude (above 20K). With FOW enabled, the accuracy of
the flak values will vary depending on the detection level of the
AA support units.


And then you have...

quote:

In addition, anti-aircraft guns can target planes flying in
adjacent hexes. AA units in cities/airfields will fire at aircraft
flying in adjacent hexes if they are 15,000 feet or higher.
Any AA attached to combat units or HQs (whether part
of the unit TOE or an attached Support Unit) will fire into
adjacent hexes if the enemy aircraft is 10,000 feet or higher


Confused yet? As it turns out, it remains so confusing that most WiTE2 players aren't able to discern when something is a bug to be reported - or - it is working as designed (WAD).

So, it has been generally accepted to not conduct airbase bombing missions after turn 1.

(in reply to daj)
Post #: 4
RE: axis air questions - 2/20/2022 6:24:44 AM   
ShaggyHiK

 

Posts: 166
Joined: 10/10/2021
Status: offline 		Attacks on airfields after the first move are needed not to destroy aircraft on them, but to damage the infrastructure and cause damage.
Destroyed aircraft on the ground is just a nice bonus.
OPS losses will force the enemy to use other airfields. If this is a game against a bot, then departures from this airfield will lead to huge losses, but the chance of the departure itself will drop sharply.

(in reply to DarkHorse2)
Post #: 5
RE: axis air questions - 2/20/2022 6:50:40 AM   
Hardradi


Posts: 571
Joined: 2/9/2011
Status: offline 		This would be more effective against level 1 air bases. Do you agree?

I find it is very hard to get higher than 60% damage on port and air bases. It seem like some sort of controlled limit is in place.

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Post #: 6
RE: axis air questions - 2/20/2022 9:34:56 AM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		Upgrade to 1.02.20

< Message edited by Zovs -- 2/20/2022 9:36:24 AM >

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Post #: 7
RE: axis air questions - 2/20/2022 1:36:26 PM   
marion61

 

Posts: 1688
Joined: 9/8/2011
Status: offline 		A couple of weeks ago I ran a test on port bombing. I was using axis air to bomb a little port on the Sea of Azov. It took me on average 5 turns to put that port out of commission. Also remember that FOW distorts what your seeing, but you'll know when the port is destroyed by the map mouse over of the hex as it will show as Hex Isolated (you also need to close off supply from land or you will never see the Hex Isolated message).

My conclusion. Use naval interdiction to put a port out. It's more cost effective in planes, and if you already have the port out of supply by land, interdiction will isolate the hex on your first try. You do have to win the naval interdiction also. One other thing is that naval interdiction you see on the map and that's the value, so FOW doesn't affect it like port bombing.

< Message edited by marion61 -- 2/20/2022 1:43:51 PM >

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Post #: 8
RE: axis air questions - 2/20/2022 1:43:02 PM   
Elouda

 

Posts: 183
Joined: 2/16/2008
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		I can actually say I've had good success with bombing ports out - in my first GC on version x.14 about a month ago, I was able to isolate Leningrad by bombing out the port to the east on Lake Ladoga (Osinovets iirc?), after several turns of bad luck with naval interdiction. To do this I flew 3 days of recon, and then 4 days of bombing during that week, which was enough to get it to 100% damage after the second raid. Aircraft losses were moderate, but it was worth it. I suspect the recon helped a lot with ensuring the bombing was effective, would suggest making sure you have sufficient air recon if you are having bad luck with bombing targets.

(in reply to marion61)
Post #: 9
RE: axis air questions - 2/20/2022 5:27:12 PM   
DarkHorse2

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 2/4/2022
Status: offline 		Elouda,

That is informative.

Do you remember the AC altitude or bomb loads used?

The losses encountered, Flak or A2A?

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Post #: 10
RE: axis air questions - 2/22/2022 1:28:07 AM   
Elouda

 

Posts: 183
Joined: 2/16/2008
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkHorse2

Elouda,

That is informative.

Do you remember the AC altitude or bomb loads used?

The losses encountered, Flak or A2A?


Recon flew for 3 days, 5 flights of 8 aircraft per day. 14000ft.

Strikes were over 4 days, single strike per day of 50 Ju-88 at 5000ft. Unsure on loadout, I suspect auto.

Flak losses for the whole turn were 72, I suspect about 50-75% of that is for the bombing missions. This was before the Flak reduction patch.

Unsure on air to air losses, theres far too much else that happened to separate it out, but I dont recall them being significant.

(in reply to DarkHorse2)
Post #: 11
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