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RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results

 
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RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/20/2022 10:34:17 AM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		And Soviet losses in pvp game are around 2.5-3mil max in 1941. While IRL they were 5-6. But what can you prove to a person that is writing such a nonsense?

quote:

The Soviet Union at the moment, if it starts in 41, hardly survives. And as a rule, it loses more than it has lost in history.


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(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 91
RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/20/2022 11:27:56 AM   
Beethoven1

 

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Joined: 3/25/2021
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

Beethoven aware that the USSR was the most motorized country in the world? Yes, not with the best cars, but at the same time, the number of vehicles by 41 was huge, even in the USA this was not the case.

But of course, the players only want to discuss and fix the Soviet Union.


This is totally false, I don't only want to discuss and fix the Soviet Union.

I have played WITE2 since it was released. In that time, in every single one of the games I have played, I have played as the Soviets, with only one exception. The only exception is the team 4x4 game which I am playing on the Axis side, where you are on the Soviet side.

So if anything, you should suspect me of being biased in favor of the Soviets, not the Axis, since I have almost entirely played the Soviets so far.

Let me remind you, back when the beta patch was released that buffed artillery and which drastically nerfed the Soviets, I was the person who started this thread showing the problems with German artillery (with the help of IDGBIA's tests) - https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5107101


So, the reason why I am now talking about problems regarding the Soviets being too strong/easy in 1941/42 is because the Soviets are in general terms currently too strong/easy in 1941/42 relative to history, not because I am biased in favor of the Axis. Soviets are so strong currently that I am managing to do fine with them without even using generals or the Soviet air force or Soviet artillery at all - see AAR here, currently up to turn 11 - https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5141454. If that can't persuade you that Soviets are too strong, then you are just not being objective.

Even while I continue to point out that Soviets are ahistorically strong overall in 1941/42, I also simultaneously have continuously pointed out some ways in which they are not. As I said here, Soviet logistics in the early war is as I said absolutely not a problem and is no more complicated or challenging than setting the whole Red Army to supply priority 4. And another way Soviets are stronger than historical is that they can defend a lot better in the north and center than historical, and if Soviets wish to do so, they can stop Germany from even getting close to reaching Lake Ladoga and cutting off Leningrad. But at the same time, Soviets cannot defend anything like as well as historical in the south. It is effectively impossible for Soviets to hold cities in the south like Kiev and Odessa as long as they historically held against a competent human Axis player. But the fact that Soviets can't viably defend the south doesn't currently actually matter, because Soviets don't actually need the industry there, and losing the VPs there is not going to result in a sudden death loss in 1941.

As far as I know, you are correct to point out that Axis takes lower than historical losses in 1941, but likewise Soviets take lower than historical losses in 1941, which you neglect to mention - up to 5-6 million casualties or so, whereas in a typical game Soviets will take far fewer casualties.

So if one of us is biased, I would suggest that it is not me.

< Message edited by Beethoven1 -- 2/20/2022 11:34:34 AM >

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)
Post #: 92
RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/20/2022 12:59:11 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Just chipping in about Odessa as I feel it is a 'special situation' where decisional power comes in.

Historically it was delegated to the Romanians to besiege, and Soviets had meaningful troops in, and brought replacements / reinforcements via sea.
In game I often see the 11th Army storming Odessa, with the needed support of German pionere and specialized assets for.

So that's where I believe player decision affects the outcome - at the cost of many German losses and exhaustion.

(in reply to Beethoven1)
Post #: 93
RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/20/2022 1:08:26 PM   
Beethoven1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Just chipping in about Odessa as I feel it is a 'special situation' where decisional power comes in.

Historically it was delegated to the Romanians to besiege, and Soviets had meaningful troops in, and brought replacements / reinforcements via sea.
In game I often see the 11th Army storming Odessa, with the needed support of German pionere and specialized assets for.

So that's where I believe player decision affects the outcome - at the cost of many German losses and exhaustion.


There is really no decision. Historically, 11th army was needed elsewhere. But in the game, 11th Army is not needed elsewhere, because the other German forces in the south are plenty to handle Kiev and the rest of the south, and plenty to ensure that those areas fall earlier than historical even if Soviets are dumb enough to defend them.

In addition, 11th army starts right by Odessa, and Odessa is on the way to anywhere it would plausibly go, so it may as well hit Odessa on the way.


You could say that it is a decision if Soviets in the south were strong enough that they could put a lot of units around Proskurov etc and that if they did, it was enough to be able to delay German rail repair, so that forces 11th army to go up there and help deal with that or something. But in reality, there is no such need for 11th Army to do that, because a competent human Germany player will have advanced further and destroyed more of the southwestern front than is historical and will have made things like an ahistorical Lvov and/or Rovno pocket even starting on turn 1.

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 94
RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/20/2022 1:21:15 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I agree to the fact the Southern German openers are far too broad right now.

I'd merrily take a hardcoded 'Cannot get past that point' instead of 'If you go past you activate the Southern Front', with Soviets units frozen and also unable to bomb in Romania or so during T1. (But I'd add more T1 T2 Soviet slowness in reaction in turn)

But it's not that the 11th Army was really 'needed elsewhere' - it was just deemed more profitable to screen Odessa since it was not a jumping spot for offensives - and move on.

(in reply to Beethoven1)
Post #: 95
RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/20/2022 10:39:37 PM   
ShaggyHiK

 

Posts: 166
Joined: 10/10/2021
Status: offline 		Soviet losses are quite high, if you start to get into encirclement, you can easily reach 5 million people. Only if the USSR suffers historical losses in the game, this will mean that it will lose Leningrad / Moscow / Rostov and, in general, by winter the front line will be much easterly and all from the fact that the logistics in the game provide excellent supplies for both sides. German players can go that far.

In reality, even unrestrained tank troops depend on the amount of fuel in the warehouse. If there are conditionally 1000 tons, then they can operate at a distance of 20 hexes, and if there are 500 tons, then only 10 hexes.

Resupply vehicles gobble up fuel on their own and so if the fuel supply level falls below the level of the vehicle's need for the round trip, the supply has no effect, the tanks can sit waiting for weeks of fuel.

Is there a similar restriction on the supply of fuel?
There is a simplified version. 25 hexes from skuld = can act.

Cargoes are automatically converted into fuel when needed.

The speed of laying the railway with building parts in the game is absolutely overestimated. In fact, the German player is able to duplicate his railway lines by winter.
That's why I say that the Germans do not encounter problems with the delivery of fuel. As a result, their mobility is increased.

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 96
RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/21/2022 6:56:42 AM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline 		Repairing the railway was neither difficult nor a long process. Repairing the railyard stations and waiting until enough trains ran through the line were two things that took a while. Railyard repair rate could be lowered in-game, whereas I don't think the game will add trains as a separate entity.

< Message edited by Jango32 -- 2/21/2022 6:58:30 AM >

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)
Post #: 97
RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/21/2022 7:16:28 AM   
ShaggyHiK

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Repairing the railway was neither difficult nor a long process. Repairing the railyard stations and waiting until enough trains ran through the line were two things that took a while. Railyard repair rate could be lowered in-game, whereas I don't think the game will add trains as a separate entity.

Indeed, in order to restore thousands of kilometers of railway tracks, metal, people and time are not needed.
Not to mention the fact that the Germans, even with the complete capture of the railway track, could not fit the size of the track and would still have to carry out work all the way, shifting the track almost from scratch.

Maybe from a technical point of view, the process itself is not very complicated. Dug out the embankment removed the old rails I changed the concrete guide to a wider one, for this, of course, I don’t need any knowledge of a higher physicist, but he eats people’s materials and time.

< Message edited by ShaggyHiK -- 2/21/2022 7:21:09 AM >

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 98
RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/21/2022 7:35:22 AM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline 		Converting from a wider to a narrower track is a relatively simple engineering job. Provided the whole track is not torn or blown apart, which was the case for most of the track captured from June to October, all that needs to be done is pull the 'spikes' to the track 'ties' on one track, move the rail closer and then use new or used 'spikes to fix the rail down again on a fresh part of the tie. No surveying, blueprints or new construction was required for converting the gauge. This is only strictly speaking for converting the gauge to allow non-Soviet trains to run on it, there were other problems with the tracks that had to be addressed which affected both German and Soviet rolling stock, but in the game it's abstracted away.


In any event, Gercke estimated that around 20km of track could be converted on average each day. As it turns out, he was not far from the mark. Rolling stock was already moving along the Brest-Baranovichi line on the 30th of June 1941 with four supply trains carrying 2000 tons of supplies arrived at Oranczyce, 85km east of the prewar border. Three trains immediately went east and reached Baranovichi on the 1st/2nd of July, around 210km into the USSR. The railway to Minsk from Brest-Litovsk was completed by the 5th of July and four supply trains arrived on the same day. Around this time the railway repair from Vilnius was also converging to Minsk sooner or later. By late July/early August the railway repair had regauged almost as far as Smolensk via Orsha. So I'd say that the current rate in-game fits the bill for railway conversion.

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)
Post #: 99
RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/21/2022 8:03:00 AM   
DarkHorse2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

In any event, Gercke estimated that around 20km of track could be converted on average each day. As it turns out, he was not far from the mark. Rolling stock was already moving along the Brest-Baranovichi line on the 30th of June 1941 with four supply trains carrying 2000 tons of supplies arrived at Oranczyce, 85km east of the prewar border. Three trains immediately went east and reached Baranovichi on the 1st/2nd of July, around 210km into the USSR. The railway to Minsk from Brest-Litovsk was completed by the 5th of July and four supply trains arrived on the same day. Around this time the railway repair from Vilnius was also converging to Minsk sooner or later. By late July/early August the railway repair had regauged almost as far as Smolensk via Orsha. So I'd say that the current rate in-game fits the bill for railway conversion.


I know what book you got that from.

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 100
RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/21/2022 9:45:55 AM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline 		There is more to it than just moving one rail to adjust the size. The smaller engines used by the European rail system carried less water and fuel. So you have to site and build new water tenders and fueling stations along with the infrastructure to replenish those new sites.

(in reply to DarkHorse2)
Post #: 101
RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/21/2022 10:02:15 AM   
Jango32

 

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quote:

This is only strictly speaking for converting the gauge to allow non-Soviet trains to run on it, there were other problems with the tracks that had to be addressed which affected both German and Soviet rolling stock, but in the game it's abstracted away.


Yup, there are more things than that, but in-game they are abstracted away. Regardless though, the IRL progress roughly matches in-game repair progress.

(in reply to carlkay58)
Post #: 102
RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/21/2022 11:37:28 AM   
ShaggyHiK

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

quote:

This is only strictly speaking for converting the gauge to allow non-Soviet trains to run on it, there were other problems with the tracks that had to be addressed which affected both German and Soviet rolling stock, but in the game it's abstracted away.


Yup, there are more things than that, but in-game they are abstracted away. Regardless though, the IRL progress roughly matches in-game repair progress.

You are not quite right. In the first months of the war, the level of destruction of the railway infrastructure during its capture by the Germans was not as absorbing as, for example, starting from the autumn of 1941.
In the future, the level of work being carried out increased and the speed of restoration of the railway network fell, by winter the supply of the entire central group of troops actually took place along 1 railway line, is this possible in the game?
At the same time, it is obvious that the hostilities also led to the depletion of the builders' units themselves.

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 103
RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/21/2022 11:48:19 AM   
Jango32

 

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quote:

Provided the whole track is not torn or blown apart, which was the case for most of the track captured from June to October


Noted that too.

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)
Post #: 104
RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/21/2022 1:38:32 PM   
Aurelian

 

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Carlkay58 covered above what I just wrote. Opps on me.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 2/21/2022 1:39:40 PM >

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(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 105
RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results - 2/21/2022 1:41:04 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

There is more to it than just moving one rail to adjust the size. The smaller engines used by the European rail system carried less water and fuel. So you have to site and build new water tenders and fueling stations along with the infrastructure to replenish those new sites.


And strengthen the rail beds, as the Russian trains were lighter then the Western ones IIRC.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to carlkay58)
Post #: 106
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