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Looking for BuOrd/ONI Publication - 2/11/2022 10:18:17 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		On https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/ I have stumbled across a reference for a "BuOrd/ONI Publication #7 Japanese Merchant Ship Armament".

Unfortunately I have not been able to locate an online source for that publication. Anyone happens to have a link or a copy?

Background:

For my mod I'm looking for info about the arming of Japanese merchant ships. In a "US Strategic Bombing survey" publication on page 49 it is mentionned that the arming of Japanese merchant vessels began only in early 1943 - I'm searching for confirmation and more details.

As users of my mod may know, most US merchant ships start unarmed and have to upgrade to receive guns - because the arming of US merchantmen had been authorized only three weeks before the attack on Pearl Habor. Looks like the Japanese merchantmen have to receive the same treatment.

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 2/11/2022 10:19:08 AM >

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RE: Looking for BuOrd/ONI Publication - 2/11/2022 12:23:37 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline 		No idea myself, but my wife is a Librarian and I have set her upon the task :) I will let you know if she finds anything.

Xargun

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 2
RE: Looking for BuOrd/ONI Publication - 2/11/2022 1:10:49 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		I looked and could only find #9. I have a friend who's a Professor of Library Science at University of Wisconsin. He's a war-game designer and I set him on the task too.

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RE: Looking for BuOrd/ONI Publication - 2/11/2022 2:02:47 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I looked and could only find #9. I have a friend who's a Professor of Library Science at University of Wisconsin. He's a war-game designer and I set him on the task too.


Excellent - it is quite amazing what librarians can pulls out of the woodwork when you set them on a task.

Xargun

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Post #: 4
RE: Looking for BuOrd/ONI Publication - 2/11/2022 5:06:45 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		I heard from him. He believes it was never scanned. He's trying to find a physical copy that he can borrow, if possible, or get a copy of if that is possible.

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RE: Looking for BuOrd/ONI Publication - 2/11/2022 5:48:12 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I heard from him. He believes it was never scanned. He's trying to find a physical copy that he can borrow, if possible, or get a copy of if that is possible.


That is the conclusion my wife has as well - that its never been scanned.

Xargun

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Post #: 6
RE: Looking for BuOrd/ONI Publication - 2/11/2022 10:39:07 PM   
Platoonist


Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
Status: offline 		I have the ONI 208 Merchant Ship Recognition Manual on CD-ROM. But I don't think that's the relevant one.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Looking for BuOrd/ONI Publication - 2/12/2022 10:35:28 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		Gentlemen, many thanks for your efforts!

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RE: Looking for BuOrd/ONI Publication - 2/21/2022 1:46:53 PM   
kbfchicago


Posts: 359
Joined: 10/17/2009
From: NC, USA
Status: offline 		Have also made a request directly to ONI's PAO office to see if they can provide a link/source to this (and related) historical documents or a connection to an ONI office that can. I've been able to leverage the CAC (Combined Arms Center) out at Fort Leavenworth for equivalent Army information in the past... A bit off topic but CACs web site has Nafzinger's extensive order of battle research which I've used for years (bought many of his OB books when he was selling them directly at game conventions over the years) for both Napoleonic and WWII gaming. Just thought I'd toss that out there for any WITP grognards who may be interested for other games/periods. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure he did not branch out into naval, at least not at the detail needed for this question.

Game On. Kevin

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Post #: 9
RE: Looking for BuOrd/ONI Publication - 2/21/2022 4:47:13 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		I am not sure that getting the info requested by the OP will solve the problem. My understanding is that to simplify the database and research, the Merchant Ship fleets of both sides were represented (abstracted) into fewer classes but similar tonnage as the real shipping of the time.

That means any given ship may be represented in the game by a different ship class with a different armament than the original. Unless the OP intends to create more ship classes to cover the issue, it is not going to be fruitful.

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Post #: 10
RE: Looking for BuOrd/ONI Publication - 2/21/2022 5:08:32 PM   
kbfchicago


Posts: 359
Joined: 10/17/2009
From: NC, USA
Status: offline 		BB, understand your point and concur it's not about a specific ship(s). I use LSTs mod but have made a few adjustments, for example I delay merchant ships and spread their mobilization into play over about 90 days for the IJ. Part of my thinking was they likely were not armed on 7 Dec, needed time to be armed, then moved into a national pool of assets (mobilized) for specific war support (centralized orders).

Should there be a reference that says arming them was historically delayed, significantly, I'd be inclined to create updates starting in late 42 and early 43 for the various ship classes already in play representing the IJ merchant capabilities, prioritizing the larger/faster vessels and start them in the game as unarmed.

I realize it's a bit of a "nit" point. But in my case I like to get the game as close to simulation as I can push it. That's aligned nicely with LST's approach to "slow" the pace, get in front of a-historical play with both detail and historical constraints.

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Post #: 11
RE: Looking for BuOrd/ONI Publication - 2/21/2022 5:29:34 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Thanks for explaining your intent. I see where you want to go now. Good luck with getting the info.

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Post #: 12
RE: Looking for BuOrd/ONI Publication - 2/22/2022 7:12:54 PM   
Moltrey


Posts: 297
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		I was going to recommend "Wartime Standard Ships" by Nick Robins, but a quick read through the small chapter on Japanese Merchant Ships in WW2 reveals nothing on armaments.
Perhaps Robins ran into the same issue of no reference materials.
Good luck- hope it works out.

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Post #: 13
RE: Looking for BuOrd/ONI Publication - 2/22/2022 7:58:26 PM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		This is circumstantial evidence, but this link shows the TK Ichiyo Maru taking about 1 month from being requisitioned to joining her first convoy.
She was built before the war, so if any weapons were fitted they were probably done in that month.
There is no other mention of time in port for weapons upgrades, but they also could have happened later.
You could have a ## day upgrade option to install weapons, then leave it up to the player to choose if/when to install them.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/Ichiyo_t.htm


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