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- 10/4/2003 1:48:34 PM

David Lehmann

Posts: 72
Joined: 10/10/2000
From: France
Status: offline

[QUOTE=AmmoSgt] Bazookas may not seem germain to the 1940 period for the French , but they were a key French weapon in 1944 ( and much of the Bazookas development is based on French research ).[/QUOTE]

Of course Bazookas have been used by the French :)
I am very interested in information regarding the French Brandt HEAT AT rifle grenade developments (this weapon being the source of the US M9 rifle grenade
and thereafter the Bazooka warhead). If you have any info about it I would be glad to know.

About other Brandt developpments :

- Brandt 120 mm mortar Mle 1935 :
This heavy mortar had been adopted by the French Army and a squad of 2 mortars should have been issued in each regiment in 1940 but not all had been delivered before the armistice. This mortar was also manufactured in Russia under the name "120mm Polkovoy Minomyot Obr.1938g". The Russians used it extensively (that's why it is often thought that this mortar is a russian conception) and it has later been copied by the germans for their "120 mm Granatewerfer 1942". But the mortar is not in the French OB of SPWAW.

- Brandt 25 mm AT shell and taper-bore AT guns developped for the French army :
The 25x194R shell used in the 25 mm Puteaux Mle 37 APX and 25 mm Hotchkiss Mle 34 AT guns was taken as the basis for the taper-bore experiments conducted in 1940 by the Danish Larsen company for the French Army, utilizing also the first trials of Gerlich. Larsen developped a 29/20 mm AT guns that should have replaced all the French 25 mm AT guns. The 29/20 mm shell is manufactured by the French company Manhurin. These studies were then followed up by the Germans to create different Gerlich type taper-bore AT guns : 2.8 cm sPzB 41, 4.2 cm lePak 41 and 7,5 cm Pak 41. They worked very well, but suffered from a shortage of the tungsten needed in the projectile.

- New generation shells :
The studies led by Brandt in 1938/1940 aimed to increase the initial velocity of the shells (without increasing of the chamber pressure) and also more generally to increase the AT power of the shells. The French company developped a serie of sub-calibrated shells for the 25, 37, 75, 155 and 203 mm calibers (the two last ones for the French navy). The other nations did not developp similar or equivalent systems before 1941/1942. The most outstanding realization of this serie is probably the 75/57 mm shell with a muzzle velocity of 900 m/s and a penetration of 90 mm armor at 1000 m at an impact angle of 35� ... The 75 mm Mle 1897 guns could have engaged and destroyed German Panzer IVs at 2500 m with it ! But with the standard 1910M "breaking" shell (obus de rupture) the panzers were generally engaged/destroyed at 800 m.
Except the sub-calibrated shells, Brandt also developped a 75 mm HEAT shell at this time, using the patent of the swiss Mohaupt. The tests took place in Bourges in 1940 and the results were that impressive that they were put in the secret immediately in order not to be used by the Germans.
Before that, the war ministry allowed Brandt to give the exploitation licenses to the USA and the United Kingdom. The sub-calibrated shells are used in the UK to developp the APDS shells (armoured piercing discarted sabot) issued from 1942/1943. The first AT guns using them were the 6 Pdr and 17 Pdr AT guns.

About the Somua S-35 The APX-4CE turret could rotate 360� in 30 seconds, and the gun elevation could go from -18� to +18�.
I think also that the max. armor is 56mm and not 73mm like in the game but I am not sure if in the game the armor is directly correlated to armor thickness or if it take into account the type (cast, rolled) and the angle of the armor.

Regards,

David

_____________________________

"Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing in the tempting place."

(in reply to AmmoSgt)

Post #: 1

- 10/4/2003 10:26:32 PM

Charles2222

Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline

AmmoSgt:

quote:

The Czech 37mm L48 also demonstrates similar superority of the German 37mm L45 pak 35/36 but not as great as the US 37mm .
So again I would point out That i can provide hard data that is in fact directly compaerable one gun to the other as a basis for my "opinion" and while I appreciate

Excuse me if that quote may make no sense cut off like that, but I used it as an example. I've always suspected this before but now I'm definite about it. You wrote the post containing those words and surprisingly had some paragraphs. What's the problem? Simple. You're not hitting your enter key at the end of a paragraph enough times.

Look at where you typed 'as the US 37mm .' What that's caused by is you hitting the enter key only once, thinking that's going to end that paragraph and then you just start the next sentence. You have to phtsically see a SPACE between the previous line and the last one to effect a paragraph.

Here's a botched paragraph with hitting the enter key only once:
XXXXXXXXX

(The same data with hitting the enter key twice): Here's a botched paragraph with hitting the enter key only once:

XXXXXXXXX

See? XXXXXXXXX is now a new paragraph.

(in reply to AmmoSgt)

Post #: 2

- 10/5/2003 8:05:47 AM

Vathailos

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/13/2003
From: In a van, down by the river.
Status: offline

Ammo,

You bring up a good point, about "balance". I guess I'm looking more at the game aspect when I say that one country's weapons system is unbalancing, your statement remains true, namely that war wasn't balanced. I guess what I'm more for is accuracy, in retrospect. And I think this type of debate fosters that (assuming those in the know, or the final "more correct" answer is heeded and implimented). If it has failed to in the past, I'd like to say that I appreciate your continued effort to bring it up to more historically accurate standards.

I have to ask, since you've fired the LAW, can you think of actually trying to hit something with that if your life depended on it? Geesh! What a sorry weapon! IMO the only thing it's useful for is taking out bunkers when your grenade arm's sore ;). I swear, I think I'd rather throw a grapefruit at the enemy. It'd have the same trajectory and range, and might destract them whereas the LAW is more than likely only going to **** them off :D.

Anyway, back to the point at hand. I appreciate your efforts to lobby for updates. I for one would love to see the implementation of WP for the US.

If you have the time (and my perception may be skewed) try a few M9 shots vs the best Panthers money can buy. Try frontal shots. I swear, it seems to me that the angle doesn't matter all that much. They'll punch through the front almost as easy as the sides. That's what spooks me so, and prompts my cries of "too powerful, nurf that baby".

Anyway, glad you took the time to respond. Like I said, if you get a petetion drive cranked up, let me know. I genuinely see merrit in much of your proposals.

(in reply to AmmoSgt)

Post #: 3

- 10/6/2003 4:18:26 AM

Voriax

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline

Ammo, I'm happy that you finally found the Carlisle archives.. ;) I admit I goaded you a bit with the US 37mm gun...I have no problems with that weapon and did know its actual performance. So the Germans kept manufacturing the same ammunition for the czech guns..that is interesting to know. Although I've seen PzGr40 pen figures for them, this suggests that Germans weren't satisfied with just the Czech ammunition. I actually considered ignoring this whole thread, but couldn't...too stupid perhaps. Anyways, the German 37mm Gun got a huge penetration increase. You see this and scream 'it is because Tiger kitties'. You obviously did not consider that the original value *may* have been an error. An error that was corrected in later OOB version. Here: http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/germany/guns.html we have a nice table of penetration values. The difference between German and Czech guns seems to be few mm, PaK 36 value for 90deg at 500m seems to be 48mm, the 30deg value (apparently from horizontal) is 29-36, same distance. Apparently the sources disagreed here. http://www.panzerlexikon.de/ gives similar results, 457m (apparently an allied test, considering an obscure meter value), 90deg, 48mm for 37mm KWK L/45, same values for PaK36 Here: http://www.miniatures.de/html/int/shells-german.html they give 65mm for German 37mm's, 58 for L40 Skoda and 69mm for the L47. But what is interesting that these numbers are for PzGr 39, a German round. Figures for Czech APHE ammo are 45 and 50mm, respectively. These are of course shorter range..apparently point blank. There are a lot of sites with similar numbers, though in some cases one must wonder if the plate angles are 30deg from horizontal or from vertical. But in any case, for a person whos been playing past couple months almost exclusively with US and Soviet troops it is clear to me that an _error_ was fixed and the current 37mm PaK value is *closer* to real values than the one in 4,5 OOB was. Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to AmmoSgt)

Post #: 4