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Camp's - 8/4/2001 6:52:00 PM

bigjim

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It seems to me that these Campaigns are abit silly WB??? Your setups seem to indicate that the Players team has NO intel??? I mean getting a DELAY order and then having to attack seems like G2 needs to be lined up against the wall and shot and hordes of tanks appearing in the REAR of the formations is just plain out of the question for any reasonable commander would have SOME intel

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- 8/5/2001 1:32:00 AM

A_B

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BigJim, You should identify which campaign you're refering to. As far as whether a battle is delay, advance etc., I'm finding in designing battles that these are better used as design tools, as the AI acts differently in a defense scenario vs. a assault scenrio. So WB may have called it a delay in order to get the AI to be aggressive, but in reality you are advancing. Make sense? As far as enemy coming from unexpected areas, you are correct. These may be areas where they shouldn't be coming from, but if you just think of them as units that broke through the unit on your flank, and they never radioed you the information. Sometimes, if you use a very unusual tactic - such as a very wide flanking manuever - you'll not be interacting as the scenario designer intended. Finally, IMHO, WB's campaigns have improved a lot since the first ones, as his experience has increased, and he's invented new tricks to make the AI a better opponent. He also makes his campaigns 'average' in diffuculty (hurtgen excepted), so the bulk of players can play it. If you are new to SPWAW, don't expect it to be too easy. Conversly, don't expect it to be very challenging if your an SP expert.

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- 8/5/2001 3:51:00 AM

Bing

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I was taught that commanders who did not carefully guard their flanks deserved to be overrun. Just a thought. Bing

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- 8/5/2001 1:35:00 PM

bigjim

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thanks for the insight AB that helps clear up some of it. Bing what part of REAR didn't you understand???

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- 8/5/2001 2:10:00 PM

Wild Bill

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Without spending a lot of time trying to defend my thoughts, Big Jim, I would ask first of all, which campaigns are you referring to? There are a number of them and I might be better able to answer you if I knew which ones. I would not want to think of them as "silly." THat of course, is a matter of opinion. Whichever ones they were, there was a purpose in my mind and a reason for what I did. As for military intel in WW2, or any war for that matter, I get a sense from reading and talking with vets that military intelligence in the minds of some is a contradiction in terms. I could think of a few, such as Singapore, Midway, Battle of the Bulge, Normandy and Stalingrad from the German side, and perhaps others. Maybe my intelligence is something on that level. I'm sorry my work seems "ludicrous" to you. Not much I can do about that except try to do it better...and I will. But its an open field out there and there is plenty of room for a lot of campaigns, 999 of them in fact, in SPWAW. So maybe there will be some more by other designers that will be to your liking along the way. I hope so. Wild Bill

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- 8/5/2001 4:28:00 PM

Resisti

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Bigjim, I've been surprised and puzzled,too, playing my firsts campaigns (by WB, but NOT only by him) to find out that my troops were attacked by flanks/rear and sometimes encircled by unexpected AI forces which by miracle appeared where..they shouldnt appear. Then, i thought a bit more abt that and drawn to the conclusion that it is a way for designers to make playing against AI more interesting and challenging. If you let the AI play its way without adding some little..tricks(altough sometimes looking unhistorical and/or unrealistic), well,soon it would become a simple and boring shoot-the-bear action:the AI is simply too SILLY for any mean brained human being!

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- 8/5/2001 5:32:00 PM

Don

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quote:

Then, i thought a bit more abt that and drawn to the conclusion that it is a way for designers to make playing against AI more interesting and challenging.

Bingo - we have a winner! I'm sure WB would step aside for anyone who is better at designing campaigns.

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- 8/5/2001 10:23:00 PM

bigjim

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Ok first off WB I didn't want to really step hard on your toes I know you have done alot of work trying to make these up. The one I am playing is the "long road" and I use combined infantry and armour when moving up, I have had armour "appear" in hexes I passed thru with my infantry who did not "spot" them (because by game design I think they had not been "placed" yet). When playing these "camps" one makes some assumtions (like you are the advance point and the rest of the army is BEHIND you). I guess it is a matter of "game play" if so fine, but I do find from a realistic point of view some of the things are "silly" and since MY father was a WWII vet I too have some first hand knowledge. Although I must admit being at Iwo Jima and being in bocage country is somewhat different and your reference to "midway" as poor military intel is a good one since the IJN did lack the "eyes" it sorely needed (our breaking of the "purple code" didn't hurt either). I think that you do alot of work for the guys Bill and I just felt that perhaps some slight tweaking might make the game as playable without as much "spoiler" activity needed, sorry if it bent you up some. BTW is it your information that Bazooka's, Panzershrike's, etc are accurate out to 250 yards???? [ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: bigjim ] [ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: bigjim ]

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- 8/5/2001 10:34:00 PM

BryanMelvin

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Big Jim - try the Stalingrad Camapign and see the tricks of design trade. The AI does not play as a human does but one can program it to do certain things well enough to give one a run for their money. In the Stalingrad Campaign - I made it stick to an historical story line as much as possible. I am working on an add on update to add a Break out of the pocket and a break in to the pocket depending on the branch one finds themselves in (either in Stalingrad or outside Stalingrad - Winter time) Currently - if you find yourself trapped in Stalingrad - game will end - historically for the player. You'll see your forces depleted. If you were able to win some key battles during the Rumainian Retreat, you will be left outside of the Pocket and take part in winter storm. I hope to have variations of these in an upcoming patch. Thoughout this campaign - I used sources that help to set up the AI defences as the USSR did in many of the scenarios. I had to modify the amount of mines, wire, and road blocks for playbalance sake so that a player could win ;) This Campaign is not easy and AI will give you many surprises.

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- 8/6/2001 10:16:00 AM

Alexandra

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On a side note, enemy forces that appear in hexes/areas you think are clear can also be there to simulate two things: a. Infantry that 'went to ground' or was trained to let you bypass, then pop up and attack from the rear - the Soviets' did that latter one a lot in city fighting. b. Mobile reaction forces - which were a key to how the Germans, especially, defended. Alex

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- 8/6/2001 10:37:00 AM

Bing

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quote:

Originally posted by bigjim: thanks for the insight AB that helps clear up some of it. Bing what part of REAR didn't you understand???

The rear of a formation is as much a flank as right or left. I learned the hard way in SPW@W never to take a single tree or building for granted. I almost always leave squads behind to guard the perimeter. Don't get surprised the way I used to, not as frequently anyway. Bing

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- 8/6/2001 12:22:00 PM

Wild Bill

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I understand and I thank you for the second letter...and the first one. Nothng wrong with keeping folks on their toes. Now another you would like is the Hurtgen campaign ... and they really got cut off, but that is not a real issue in the battle. or campaign. The issue is taking and holding at least Kommerscheidt but even so, General Cota will finally order an evacuation. This one is probably more to your liking. Good replies from all of you, A-B, Resisti, Don, and Bing. Alexandra brings up two good points. Flankers undetected can get in your rear, and that is the case sometimes in a few of these battles. They can sweep past your rapid advance and end up behind you. But your point is taken and appreciated, Jim. I'll keep it in mind. Oh, Stalingrad is an excellent campaign! Marauder did well. [ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: Wild Bill ]

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- 8/6/2001 2:01:00 PM

Bing

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Addendum to Alexandras good summary of enemy units suddenly appearing: As von Mellethin (sp?) points out in his book, the Germans consistently surprised Soviet units by appearing in their rear. So much so it became an operational item for the Germans, a tactic they could depend upon. How were they able to achieve such results? The Soviets let them get away with it - careless leadership, for lack of a better phrase. Bing

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- 8/6/2001 2:43:00 PM

Wild Bill

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Touche', old Timer. Indeed!...Wild Bill

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- 8/6/2001 7:11:00 PM

bigjim

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Thanks all for the great input :) Bing in my military training there are four points Rear, right and left flank, and point. Normally a "rear guard" is posted when making a retrograde movement (marines don't retreat, they just attack in the opposite direction). As for troops going to "ground" no problems there either, but TANKS going to ground is somewhat a different proposition, they would have had to approach from farther away which would mean the commander had no intel about what was behind and on his flanks (possible but not likely). Of course battle is "fluid" and his intel could have broken down (actually no problem with this either) but have his intel break down EVERY senario is abit much (which was my original point). I just put it out badly which is my fault, thanks again for the posts.

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- 8/6/2001 9:53:00 PM

Bing

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BigJim - I'm sure you're absooutely correct on the four points. What I meant and didn't express particularly well is the rear of a formation can be as potentialliy lethal as the front or either flank. I agree the game pulls some "funnies" now and then, but after all it IS a game and somtimes we expect too much from an already overburdened AI. I decided to just accept these kinds of things happen, in game that otherwise is the best ground tactical game I have played. If my attempt at humor was inappropriate, consider it withdrawn and an apology is offered. Bing

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- 8/6/2001 10:34:00 PM

bigjim

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OK tried Stalingrad, here the problem with this one. ALL the Russian troops are set to ELITE (sorry not historical). Numbers are fine but unroutable troops is not correct, the Russian troops in many cases were ordered into battle at gun point (hardly elite troopers). Now with that aside it seems to be a good set up except when I tried to save the game and come back later for next battle it returned to me to the first battle all over again????? (I had played the first turn of the second battle but didnot save it) Bing no offense taken and thanks for the clarification, I do realize it is a game and it is SO good that I just can't resist trying to see it become PERFECT :) [ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: bigjim ]

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- 8/6/2001 11:29:00 PM

Bing

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by bigjim: [Bing no offense taken and thanks for the clarification, I do realize it is a game and it is SO good that I just can't resist trying to see it become PERFECT :) Jim - I've felt that way too - and been VERY frustrated when a seemingly impossible situation develops. My current pet peeve is designers who disguise stone buildings and stone walls as ordinary streets - so your vehicles smash into them and are immobilized IF you do not check every hex they will traverse in advance. Some may enjoy this sort of thing, to me it is like hemorhoids: Irritating as all get out but not fatal. I guess I've said enough. I was going to talk about the dumbest drivers in the entire world being the ones on my side, but I should lay it down now. Bing

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- 8/7/2001 1:11:00 AM

bigjim

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LOL Bing I know what you mean I have had that happen in several camps, not sure if it is intentional or just a bug with map making (seems like I remember some bug regarding that). MY pet peeve is getting a draw when you have taken all the V hexs and hold them in strength and the computer issues a draw, IMHO if you accomplish your objective in strength then the MINIMUM result should be marginal victory. If the out come is preordained why play the camp??????

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- 8/7/2001 2:49:00 AM

Bing

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Well, I think some designers do the stone-wall-disguised-as-ordinary-pavement to keep us on our toes, in fact I am pretty much convinced this does happen. The only sure way I know to get a decisive in campaigns is to get all the victory hexes on or before the halfway point in the game. I just got a decisive at the start of the 17th turn of a 20 turn battle. Second battle of five in the campaign - now perhaps a decisive in the first battle ad something to do with this, I don't know. Also, it is not a generated campaign it is designed. Bing

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- 8/7/2001 2:55:00 AM

Bing

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The other thing is: Shoot everything that moves, I do mean everything, bailed out crews, no matter, snow no mercy. Break the enemy morale and you are very much on your way to a decisive. Pound the living stuffing out of them with arty, I always go for as much onboard arty as I can purchase, minimum 80mm mortars and up. I like mortars quite the best due to their accuracy and higher rate of fire. Basically, in a campagin it is very much a proposition of: Never give a sucker an even break. Pound and pound and then pound some more. I'm mean, I will chase a retreating squad down a road and cut down the last man. War is not meant to be nice, not from what I have observed. Bing

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- 8/7/2001 3:05:00 AM

bigjim

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heheh that would be nice Bing but the designers conviently only give ya half the points needed to purchase the right stuff and half the time required to do a proper assualt (just quit the stalingrad camp after the designer used a totally unreal senario to soak off all my armour (25 elite aa guns plus infantry in 2 to 1 odds while I am in the attack) then gives me NO repair points so I just quit the damn camp it is just too dumb for words :{

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- 8/7/2001 4:48:00 AM

Bing

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Don't gve up, Jim. SPW@W sometimes is like hitting your thumb with a hammer: You get used to it. I went through what sounds to be a lot what is happening to you now, when I was getting started with W@W. Why don't you try a different campaign, say the Utah to the Rhine. Plenty of points, you can buy rocket units and hammer the Germans into sawdust. Adjust the settings in the preference screen, that may help. I figure elite troops - usually I play with elite units - can see better than average, so I crank up the searching % and it does help. Try lots of different stuff. Mostly, just keep coming back, after a time the game will grow on you. Promise. Bing

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- 8/7/2001 7:45:00 AM

BryanMelvin

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quote:

Originally posted by bigjim: OK tried Stalingrad, here the problem with this one. ALL the Russian troops are set to ELITE (sorry not historical). Numbers are fine but unroutable troops is not correct, the Russian troops in many cases were ordered into battle at gun point (hardly elite troopers). [ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: bigjim ]

This is the point - setting the USSR to Green status in SPwaw Terms would make the Stalingrad Cmp a bit unplayable. First, The USSR units were not set to elite status. What you see in campaign is how game engine incorporates national characteristics into game scenarios. USSR troops are set up in good terrain where they fight better. Next, in order to have the AI even move USSR units in an attack - one must up the experience rates in the 65 to 75 range and Leader Rally in the 60 ranges - hardly elite status. All I can say is this - design a scenario and balance it to be able to be played from both sides and you'll soon discover what is involved in game mechanics.

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- 8/8/2001 12:41:00 AM

m10bob

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Military intel????????O.K....how 'bout this......the poor troops going into Normandy were never even told about those hedgerows!!!NO plans for them whatsoever and everybody knows what happened there....Oh yes!.let's not forget we then bombed the 29th inf division as soon as we were ready to assault St Lo!!!!!SHOULDER TO SHOULDER WITH WILD BILL!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

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- 8/8/2001 1:07:00 AM

A_B

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quote:

Military intel????????O.K....how 'bout this......the poor troops going into Normandy were never even told about those hedgerows!!!NO plans for them whatsoever and everybody knows what happened there....

You know i've read this before (I beleive in an Amrose book), but this comment doesn't pass the smell test. How could the Brits not know about Normandy hedgerows. They spent all of WW1 in France, and i'm sure had logistical facilities, etc. in Normandy. Many of the Brit royal families are originally from Normandy (Norman invasion of england), and the brits spent 100 years fighting for the same area some time in the past. I think the whole 'we didn't know how hard the hedgerows would be' thing is a huge excuse made up to feed to the press, to explain why progress was so slow after Normandy. It sounded a lot better to say, "this country is just so defensable," rather than saying, "these germans are tough veterans, and most of the american troops are still green." I'm not denying that it was tough terrain. But England has it's share of hedgerows, as does a lot of the rest of europe (certain locations anyway). I admit i'm specualting on this, but as much planning as the US did before the invasion, i find it impossible to believe that a lot of though wasn't put into the expansion of the beachhead. Terrain analysis would have been a HUGE part of this planning. my two cents.

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- 8/8/2001 1:12:00 AM

bigjim

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Well examples of "friendly fire" or in this example "bombing short" had NOTHING to do with military intel and ALL to do with incompetent implimentation of orders (hardly the things we were discussing in this thread) Not to mention that it was not intended to be a "pissing contest" of WB's abilities in fact just the opposite, Bill does such a great job at this that I just wanted to point out the "over use" of some tactics, NOT to discourage him in any way.

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- 8/8/2001 1:46:00 AM

RockinHarry

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Some months ago I also muttered a little bit about scenario designers not giving enough "intel", at least in prepared "assault" scenarios. In these assault scenarios I expect at least a "few" enemy positions and minefields to be known. (..do you know HPS "Tigers on the prowl"?) In delay or advance scenarios things may be different, although they�re not completely fought without a minimum of "pre-game" intelligence. Some designers replied the SPWAW recon units are there for this purpose but I think that misses the point. I think you can combine both, recon units AND pregame intelligence without disturbing each other! And...intelligence don�t always need to be reliable! :D In assault scenarios you can place some "fake" map text, indicating wrong enemy positions or minefields, something you might expect in scenarios/campaigns to come in the near future. :eek: :D Sure,...you have to work around the incapabilities of the AI, but that does not completely exclude this kind of "intelligence". For example in WBW Huertgen campaign you see in the first scenario some US minefields in front of the to be reached objective areas. What�s that? ...WBW placed them there to simulate "known" german minefields. Good idea I think! _________ Harry

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- 8/8/2001 4:28:00 AM

Bing

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RockinHarry - I feel the same way. There are sometimes situations in W@W where the commander is denied basic information which probably any local resident would automatically be aware of. (OK, the middle of the Steppes doesn't have many locals, but I think most will know what I mean here.) I work around it as best I can, not letting it get in the way of enjoying this great game. If something happens where I think it was simply not credible I'll replay - others will disagree and that is what makes a horserace, a difference of opinion. Same applies here. Bing

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- 8/8/2001 11:12:00 AM

Wild Bill

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Excellent point on the intel, some true, some erroneous would be nice..and realistic. A commander yes, should have knowledge of his mission. That should be clear. Possible dangers real or unreal (panzers lurking, observers saw troop movements to your north, etc) and some fake stuff is nice. "All reports indicate no tanks in your area.." BOOM! :eek: I like it...Wild Bill

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