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Boys AT Rifle - 8/8/2001 11:45:00 PM

bigjim

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Does anyone have the spec's on these weapons??? They seem awfully strong at LONG distances??? I mean a 14 hex range with 25mm penatration seems a bit much but if they are high velocity I guess it is possible??? just wondering

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- 8/9/2001 12:30:00 AM

rjmsx

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Hi bigjim Take a look at this site BoysAT It seems that the Finnish army used these rifles to and according to the data 25mm at 14 hexes is quite impossible.

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- 8/9/2001 3:09:00 AM

john g

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quote:

Originally posted by bigjim: Does anyone have the spec's on these weapons??? They seem awfully strong at LONG distances??? I mean a 14 hex range with 25mm penatration seems a bit much but if they are high velocity I guess it is possible??? just wondering

They have 26 pen at point blank range, and a max range of 15. Remember they do lose penetration as they reach max range. Compare them to .50 cal mg, 23 penetration at point blank range but a max range of 35 which means it loses less penetration at 15 hexes than the boys at rifle does. The same midrange bump occurs for the British 2pdr at gun and 25pdr GH. The 2pdr is better at point blank range but even at 10 hexes the 25pdr has better penetration due to its greater max range. thanks, John.

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- 8/9/2001 3:15:00 AM

gdpsnake

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BigJim, Get used to the bizzare. Boys AT rifles slaughter armor and halftracks alike at LONG range. Even worse is the 2pdr AT gun which kills Panzer 4's consistently at 15+ hexes despite the literature. I've asked these same questions many times on this forum and everyone agrees they are 'too good' but the folks who change the OOB's are working on other projects and fixes are a way off. I don't know how to edit the weapons. If anyone is listening? Can you tell me how to change the values?

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- 8/9/2001 3:17:00 AM

soldat31

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I personally think that the Boys AT rifle is too strong. At close ranges, I'm sure they can do some damage to halftracks and the like, but at they are much too accurrate and deadly at long range. 15 hexes, that's like 750 yards right? Just a bit under half a mile. I'm tired of losing halftracks at that distance.

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- 8/9/2001 3:48:00 AM

john g

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quote:

Originally posted by soldat31: I personally think that the Boys AT rifle is too strong. At close ranges, I'm sure they can do some damage to halftracks and the like, but at they are much too accurrate and deadly at long range. 15 hexes, that's like 750 yards right? Just a bit under half a mile. I'm tired of losing halftracks at that distance.

If you are talking about 251/1 halftracks, they only have 15mm front and 8mm side and rear armor. That is the sort of armor that an at rifle was spec'ed to penetrate. Why do you think that the Canadians used obsolete Ram tanks as personnel carriers? They actually had enough armor to protect against more than rifle and mg fire. thanks, John.

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- 8/9/2001 3:51:00 AM

bigjim

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Thanks for the info guys, it just confirms my thoughts that it was abit over done in the game, and when playing vs Brit forces the AI kind of "games the game" by choosing numerous squads of BoysAT (knowing full well it amounts to "cheap" tanks) :)

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- 8/9/2001 4:16:00 AM

Grumble

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quote:

If you are talking about 251/1 halftracks, they only have 15mm front and 8mm side and rear armor. That is the sort of armor that an at rifle was spec'ed to penetrate. Why do you think that the Canadians used obsolete Ram tanks as personnel carriers? They actually had enough armor to protect against more than rifle and mg fire.

Well the 250/251's armor was sloped at 15-20 degrees frontally and about 30 degrees and the sides-which effectively doubles its protection. The Canadians used the Ram because it and the surplus M7s had better cross-country performance than the M2/3 halftracks. In the lowlands of Belgium and Holland they found that the underpowered US halftracks could not keep up with the armor. The only other alternative was the bren-gun carrier and that was too small to carry a full squad. The additional protection was part of it, but the MAIN reason was tactical mobility equivalent to the tanks.

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Post #: 8

- 8/9/2001 5:40:00 AM

Kluckenbill

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The Soviet PTRD Anti Tank Rifles are also very effective against 250/251 Half Tracks. I don't know if changes were made to the calculations or if its just my own experience, but it does seem that the early war AT weapons are more accurate and deadly in 6.1 than they were in earlier versions of SPWAW. It may just be that in earlier versions it was easier to spot and thus attack the firing units. Now the AT guns regularly get to shoot 6 or more times in a turn with no return fire. This may (or may not) be realistic, but it sure is hard to get used to.

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Post #: 9

- 8/9/2001 8:54:00 AM

Alexandra

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Both the 2 pounder and the Boys ATR are, in fact, over powerful in SP:WAW. I don't know the tecnhical specs of the weapons, but I do know after thier dismal performance in France, the British Army wanted new weapons. Like the Pz IIIs long barreled 50mm gun, the project was stopped because it was easier to make the weapons already in production - this decision would cost Churchill's first Minister of Armaments his job, and nearly led to a vote of No Confidence against the PM himself. From what I've read, the Boys wasn't effective, even against HTs at more than 50 or so meters, and the 2# was also considered a very short range weapon. The UK made up for this with well designed and impimented long range arty fire, until the 6# and later the PIAT came on line. How to fix for SP? I dunno. Alex

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- 8/9/2001 10:28:00 AM

Warrior

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The best thing to do with these is set their range to fire at 1 hex. Select unit, hit "Y."

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Post #: 11

- 8/9/2001 10:41:00 AM

Possum

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Hello All. I have just done some research into the OOB's and here is what I've found...... 1st the 2 Lbdr 2Lbdr IX, Max. Pen = 64, Max. Range = 35 , Accuracy = 11 37mm KwK L46.5 (the gun on the Pz-IIIe) Max. Pen = 64, Max. Range = 35, Accuracy = 10 37mm KwK 38 (Gun on Pz-35 & Pz-38) Max. Pen = 56, Max. Range = 40, Accuracy = 11. So you can see, in game terms there is no effective difference between the 2 Lbdr and the gun on the Pz-III. But the Gun on the Pz-38 does have a small disadvantage. (In fact the Gun on the Pz-III is superior as it usually comes with plentifull HE, and much better Fire control and Rangefinder than the 2 Lbdr) On to ATR's Boys ATR, AP Pen.= 26, Range = 15, Accuracy = 7 PzB-39 ATR, AP Pen.= 38, Range = 10, Accuracy = 4 PTRD ATR, AP Pen. = 35, Range = 18, Accuracy = 8 Wz-35 ATR, AP Pen. = 27, Range = 12, Accuracy = 18 Solcthurn ATR, AP Pen. = 40, Range = 20, Accuracy = 7 Hotchkiss ATR, AP Pen.= 34, Range = 15, Accuracy = 6 Lathi ATR, AP Pen. = 27, Range = 12, Accuracy = 7 Type 97 ATR, AP Pen. = 39, Range = 20, Accuracy = 6 So you can see that the Boys ATR is the worst one in the game already in AP penetration, average range, and above average accuracy. I think that people are suffering from "The enemy's equipment is better than mine" syndrome. A common occurance, and one that I often feel myself. I have played both sides in North African scenarioes, and I can assure you that the inferiority you are feeling is both real and Imaginary. Please see this link to a short article I posted months ago about my impessions on the uberweapons of the North African Front. http://www.matrixgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=004605 In short, I think the 2 Lbdr and Boys are fine as they are, as any dedicated Commonwealth Forces player will tell you, they are virtually useless......

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- 8/9/2001 12:37:00 PM

Belisarius

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I agree on the Boys being overpowered. It has (according to what I've read) a max penetration of 12mm @ 100m (2-3 hexes) and only 10mm @ 500m. That will NOT take out even a SdKfz 251 at 14 hexes. Nooo way. Although it's practically worthless beyond 300m.. As a comparison, the Gerries captured quite a number of these in Dunkirque and they outright deemed it unworthy for AT use. (And the poor chaps in the British army that had to use them probably did the same - from experience :D) However, it was useful for fixed emplacements like machineguns and stuff.

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- 8/9/2001 1:51:00 PM

Richard Harris

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The .55cal Boys ATR using the AP W Mk2 cartridge (steel core, mv 3250f/s) should theoretically penetrate about 29mm of armour at pointblank range and 0deg impact angle. (This is extrapolated back using the geometric ratios of the game engine from the datum: 20mm/500m/0deg, which is the value for this particular cartridge from Hogg, Infantry Weapons of WW2.) Lead cored ball ammo was also widely available (with quite dismal penetration characteristics) and it is possible that many of the low values associated with this weapon are due to the ball ammo being used. It is interesting to note that a tungsten cored AP round was developed and issued in small numbers from 1940 (AP W Mk3). This had 'rather better' performance than the conventional (steel cored) AP W Mks 1&2. No figures given by Hogg unfortunately. On a personal note I had an opportunity some 10 years or so ago to take a potshot with a Boys rifle. (The ammo at the time was about $5 a shot, i.e. semi collectable :D ) The target was an old slant-six engine block from a Chrysler Valiant (225 cu.in IIRC). I put a round into the side of the block from 100m, it went straight through and blew a fist sized crater in the rock wall behind it (old pyrite quarry)... I was impressed at the time. I suspect the main reason that ATR's (not just the Boys) fell out of fashion was because of their marginal behind armour effects just as much as their admittedly limited penetrative characteristics... The Australians hung onto them (Boys) for busting bunkers and log pits in the jungle until the end of the war though. P.S. The PzB-39 should only be able to penetrate 25mm/300m/30deg, so a pointblank pen of 38 is definitely overdone!

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- 8/9/2001 6:31:00 PM

panda124c

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quote:

Originally posted by soldat31: I personally think that the Boys AT rifle is too strong. At close ranges, I'm sure they can do some damage to halftracks and the like, but at they are much too accurrate and deadly at long range. 15 hexes, that's like 750 yards right? Just a bit under half a mile. I'm tired of losing halftracks at that distance.

If you will look at the penetration for ATRs at ranges of 10 or less you will find that they all have better penetration than 20mm auto cannnons at the same range. I not sure why this was done, a game limitation or an attempt to give the infantry some sort of AT weapon that is useful. The Boys is no whimp since it is .55 cal. And 15 range isn't so bad look at the Russia ATR, 18 range.

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- 8/9/2001 6:41:00 PM

Colonel von Blitz

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quote:

Originally posted by Richard Harris: On a personal note I had an opportunity some 10 years or so ago to take a potshot with a Boys rifle. (The ammo at the time was about $5 a shot, i.e. semi collectable :D ) The target was an old slant-six engine block from a Chrysler Valiant (225 cu.in IIRC). I put a round into the side of the block from 100m, it went straight through and blew a fist sized crater in the rock wall behind it (old pyrite quarry)... I was impressed at the time.

I wouldn't be impressed, I mean that engine block is probably cast iron, which has very low hardness (some 200-300HV10, if hardened maybe somewhat more) and also cast iron is quite 'fragile' if one tests it using for example Charpy V -test. So no wonder that shot went right through, but when fired at face-hardened (probably bainitic or martensitic microstructure), alloyed steel armor plate, the result is quite a lot different. Colonel von Blitz [ August 09, 2001: Message edited by: Colonel von Blitz ]

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- 8/9/2001 7:39:00 PM

TheZel66

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In the MCNA, I've seen the Boys take out PzKWIIIe's at ranges of >10 hexes. Front facing, and its not a minor incident; happens with quite a bit of frequency. [ August 09, 2001: Message edited by: TheZel ]

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- 8/9/2001 11:43:00 PM

11Bravo

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quote:

Originally posted by Colonel von Blitz: I wouldn't be impressed, I mean that engine block is probably cast iron, which has very low hardness (some 200-300HV10, if hardened maybe somewhat more) and also cast iron is quite 'fragile' if one tests it using for example Charpy V -test. So no wonder that shot went right through, but when fired at face-hardened (probably bainitic or martensitic microstructure), alloyed steel armor plate, the result is quite a lot different. Colonel von Blitz

Colonel von Blitz, Are you a metallurgist? :cool: Your post reminded me of a project I worked on where we needed to strengthen some cast iron cylinder liners for a diesel engine. They were gray cast iron, and breaking, and we looked at producing a bimetal liner with gray on the inside, and nodular on the outside. Incredibly strong! Also looked at a bainitic iron produced by heat treatment. But back to the topic... If the 2 pdr is the game equivalent of the PzIII's gun, then its a little too strong. Last book I read about fighting in North Africa revealed the perception by the troops that the 2 pdr was less powerful and had less range than the gun on the PzIIIe. However, the AI needs all the help it can get when faced with the fierce warriors that frequent this forum. Let it keep the UberGun! [ August 09, 2001: Message edited by: 11Bravo ]

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- 8/10/2001 2:36:00 AM

Colonel von Blitz

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quote:

Originally posted by 11Bravo: Colonel von Blitz, Are you a metallurgist? :cool:

I'm a future welding engineer, thus I have some knowledge of metallurgy too :cool:

quote:

Your post reminded me of a project I worked on where we needed to strengthen some cast iron cylinder liners for a diesel engine. They were gray cast iron, and breaking, and we looked at producing a bimetal liner with gray on the inside, and nodular on the outside. Incredibly strong! Also looked at a bainitic iron produced by heat treatment.

What was the cost of using bimetal liner and was there some other methods under consideration? First thing popping into my mind in this particular case would be using laser to face-harden the area that wears the most and breaks. Using laser one could lower the wear, at best, into 1/10th when compared to base material (grey cast iron or nodular cast iron). Laser-hardened microstructure of a cast iron usually is very fine martnesite and the hardness could be somewhere 55-62 HRC. One problem there is using laser: you can harden only very narrow bead in one pass, so if you want to have larger area hardened, then beads must overlap. This on the other hand results into tempered zones between beads and the wear-resistance drops a bit because of this. Hmm, this went way off topic now, sorry guys...I got carried away :D :D Colonel von Blitz

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- 8/10/2001 4:29:00 AM

Arralen

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Checked out the values given at http://www.wargamer.org/GvA/ .. says: ____________________________ Pz.B.38 7.92mm AP 1,175 m/s Pen @ 30� 100m(30) 500m(25) 2cm Kw.K.30 &�38,�and 2cm Flak�30 &�38 [V] [4] 20mm/L50 AP 780m/s Pen/Acc @ 30� 100m(20/100) 500m(14/87) APCR 1,050m/s Pen @ 30� 100m(40) 500m(20) 37mm/L46.5 AP Pzgr.745 m/s Pen/Acc @ 30� 100m(35/100) 500m(29/95) 1000m(22/47) ... based on german specification ________________________________________ Rifle, Anti-tank, 0.55�inch Boys Mk.1 [2] 14mm AP W.Mk.II 908m/s Pen @ 30� 91m(15) 451m(12.5) 40mm/L50 (2 Pounder) AP, Mk.1T 792m/s Pen/Acc @ 30� 91m(55/100) 451m(47/67) 914m(37/26) ..based on british spec. _______________________________________ While the test criteria for Boys Rifle and the german wepaons are comparable (50..66% of full-throughs), the 2 Pounder uses a penetration criteria that is totally idiotic "20% of Projectile passes through at 80% of the time". Giving unrealistic high penetration values, this test may even have been the cause that they used the gun at all .. learning the hard way that the 'real figures' where about have that at best. Sadly no accuracy data for the AT-rifles available .. Arralen

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Post #: 20

- 8/10/2001 8:17:00 AM

Paul Vebber

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I gone through the penetration and armor values using Lorrin Bird and Robert Livingstons WW2Ballistics, Armor and gunnery. This book is absolutely THE SOURCE for data on armor and penetration effectiveness. Liorrin and Robert are recognized as two of teh leading figures in teh this area and have spent 15 years researching and cross referencing the data in the book. Unfortunately it does not cover AT rifles... AT rifles have had their range cut down in the new OOBs, and in some cases the pen adjusted downwaards a bit becasue the T/D function was overrating them a fair bit. Now as to the 2 lber, the problem with it early on was its use of uncapped AP against face hardened German armor. The rounds tended to shatter on impact. Thanks to the Data in Robert and Lorrins book ad their kind assistence, COmbat Leader will be able to portray such important idiosyncricies. IT is beyond SP, but in the new OObs the effect of the face hardedned armor is hinted at, though compromise was necessary. THe 2lber was backed off to 59mm pen in teh early model and the front fo teh PzIIIh increased to 69 to account for the combination of 32mm super face hardened plate over a 30mm face hardened plate. THe Boyes ATR in its present state can do suspension dmaage to PZIIes but can't penetrate them frontally. It can hit a vision slit but that is remote beyond 3 hexes and a 15% chance inside 3...any kind of angle will prevent even that... Now the crew can bail from a nonpenetrating hit...or when teh suspension is damaged, but Boyes ATRs with 26 pen (that an maybe get to 29 with a khamsin behind it...can't go through the 30@21egrees (about 35mm effective) front armor. I tried it and out side of vulnerable location no pens in over 100 tries...check your tank toughness setting...

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- 8/10/2001 10:09:00 AM

Wallymanowar

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I have to echo Paul's statements. The ATR's effectiveness has been significantly reduced from earlier versions of the game. One thing to remember is that they can still be devastating to lightly armoured vehicles. The early Panzers, up to and including the Pz IV's were still vulnerable to these weapons and vehicles such as Halftracks and armoured cars were particularly suceptible to destruction from ATR's. One thing that is not modeled is the effect of firing such weapons. The Boyes ATR was known to dislocate the firer's shoulder and weapons such as the 20mm ATR's could be considered just as unpleasant to fire. The problem with the 2pounder guns is not that they weren't good Anti-tank guns. Their relative caliber compared to the German weapons is 40mm, so they should be about as effective as the German 37mm guns. The problem they encountered was two-fold. First as Paul explained, was the quality of the AP rounds they were supplied with. The second was they fact that they were never supplied with HE rounds and so were regularly overrun by infantry.

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Post #: 22

- 8/10/2001 12:30:00 PM

Richard Harris

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I have to agree with Paul and Mike T. on the point of this thread (ATR penetration). ATR's seem rather less effective than they used to be. Watching the AI take out later model PzIII's (from the side mind you) at ranges of 4+ hexes regularly with PTRD's was quite a sobering experience in previous mods of the game. Now they are nowhere near as nasty... As far as some of the other points raised in this thread go: Colonel von Blitz: While I am no metallurgist at all, I can only report my admittedly arbitrary observation: the engine block still had the cylinders in it, and it was 100m away. Cast iron or no the round went through the whole thing, i.e. about 18cm of cast iron plus whatever pistons are made of and went on to strike and make a 5 odd cm deep crater in the rockface of a pyrite quarry some 20m behind the target. I obviously impress too easily! ;) Current (at the time) manufacture 7.62NATO AP (M61) failed to penetrate at all. Mike T: I've heard the horror stories about dislocated shoulders et al. I can only say they have to be mythological! The Boys rifle weighs a shade over 16kg (36lb), has a reasonably effective muzzle brake, a huge recoil pad on the butt and recoils in a cradle against a buffer spring... The recoil while very heavy, was by no means unpleasant (I wouldn't be mad enough to rapid fire it though). We fed the beast a total of some 20rds, people getting one shot each except for the bloke who owned it who put through 2. He was 65 years old and would have weighed in at about 75kg (i.e. not a big bloke by any means). No one was injured and I think we all wanted another go! :D What I do remember was that it had a ferocious muzzle blast and was LOUD. I had earmuffs on and it still sounded like a .303 going off *without* hearing protection... Anyway, enough rambling off topic. I'll shut up now.

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Post #: 23

- 8/10/2001 7:00:00 PM

panda124c

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quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: Now as to the 2 lber, the problem with it early on was its use of uncapped AP against face hardened German armor. The rounds tended to shatter on impact. Thanks to the Data in Robert and Lorrins book ad their kind assistence, COmbat Leader will be able to portray such important idiosyncricies.

Paul, I was wondering, I always see the uncapped AP round for the 2lber being reffered as used early on. Is there a date at which the British stopped producing this uncapped round? I know it would take time to filter down to the troops, but I was looking to get a handle on a time frame.

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Post #: 24

- 8/10/2001 9:58:00 PM

Grumble

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For once, I'm going to have to disagree with Paul. Several different folks on this thread have produced evidence that ATRs, specifically the Boys, are overrated, particularly at ranges over 10 hexes (500M). But for me, the real issue to wave the flag on is accuracy. I find hard to believe that an iron-sighted weapon, mounted on a monopod/bipod can consistently hit small moving targets (250/251 1/2tracks aren't the largest vehicles around) out to 600M or more.

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Post #: 25

- 8/10/2001 10:16:00 PM

gdpsnake

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I've carefully read all the different posts and still come to the conclusion that the 2pdr and AT rifle weapons in the game are performing beyond historical expectations given the research material. We can't please evryone, I agree but I could please myself, no pun intended, if someone will tell me how I can adjust my units in the OOB. Or is that just asking for trouble in terms of programming or ruining files/corruption? I'm not a computer guru and that's why I rely on Matrix to address these issues. In the end, I go with their decisions. I just don't go easily like most old soldiers. One more look please, the concensus is that these weapons and the Russian and other AT rifles ARE TOO GOOD. The 2pdr AT gun is also TOO GOOD compared to historical results. Having a great time though!

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Post #: 26

- 8/10/2001 10:48:00 PM

Arralen

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AT Rifles

quote:

Originally posted by gdpsnake: I've carefully read all the different posts and still come to the conclusion that the 2pdr and AT rifle weapons in the game are performing beyond historical expectations given the research material.

One problem may be not the penetration values but the fact that with the v5.2 OOBs all(*) AT rifles are rated with warhead size 2, no matter if they are 7.92, 14 or 20mm . 'Normal' weapons <20mm are rated with warhead size '1', though. And I found that warhead size makes a great difference in killing ability (see thread http://www.matrixgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=006614 ) . With warhead size '1' the Polish AT rifle (7,92mm) gives historically correct results - you can put hole next to hole into the target, but it keeps rolling on ... with size '2' early war tanks will brew much to easy.. (*) Strange is, that this was seemingly overlooked in some OOBs .. dunno which now, would have to look it up, though. Paul: 'special vulnarablity' ?? From what you wrote I would think that these 'vulnerable location hit' things should occure only within 3 hexes or less, and after that only _very_ seldom ? Had a Sov. Sniper kill a IJA Tankette Type 92 with a turret side hit (armor 6) at 14 hexes (max. visibility) while shooting ~30� from the right. From what I understand now this shouldn't be possible, right? Told WBW on the Chat about that, but never heard anything again ? Thanks, A.

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Post #: 27

- 8/10/2001 11:32:00 PM

mao

Posts: 167
Joined: 9/15/2000
From: Michigan, USA
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quote:

One problem may be not the penetration values but the fact that with the v5.2 OOBs all(*) AT rifles are rated with warhead size 2, no matter if they are 7.92, 14 or 20mm.

Sounds reasoable to me. The funny thing is I read one of the MCNA documents last night about AT rifles; it basically suggests that they were of little use except to damage vehicles, not to knock them out. Yet ... I don't know how many of my armoured cars and halftracks have exploded when hit by one of these things ...

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Post #: 28

- 8/11/2001 2:22:00 AM

Paul Vebber

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Arralen:the "feature/bug" that allowed small arms to penetrate small amounts of armor has gone away as of version 5.2 so its once again imposssible for snipers (or MGs) to destroy fully armored vehicles - even with "vulnrable location" hits. They can get into open top ones though. It takes a long time to go through all the changes all various hnds involved in the OOB process have made. I think I fixed this in teh new v7 OOBS - I will have to check... Still even with size 1 the 7.92 caliber rouns get some extra oomph that I has tried to take away. I have not seen a small arms penetration in any v6 or v7 testing. Grumble: What is there to disagree with, I indicated that the ATRs were being reduceed in effectiveness in v7?? Rifle match shooters can put a rifle round in a 1m circle at 600 yards 90% of the time from prone position with no support. Accuracy is underrated if anything, since most of these are semiautomatic weapons and each "shot" is more than one bullet. Recoil is bad, but to a trained shooter recoil increases the set-up time for the NEXT shot, it has little effect on the current shot. Also at that range there is not much relative motion, especially if they are generally comming toward you. I've been really busy lately at a great variety of things, but the ATRs ARE being reduced in effectiveness, at this point rankly its hard to remember what all has been changed ;) Also note that most vehicles in the game generally "brew up" after taking enough damage when they are really "heavily damaged". So the documents are correct and extensive play bears that out. But lucky hits do occur and poor capability does not mean NO capability!! Also note that the armored skirts aded to German vehicles were originally desinged to provide flank protection AGAINST ATRS!! many of which (the Russian varieties in particular) could penetrate the 20 - 30mm flank armor of early German tanks at close range. The Boyes was not one of the ones realy worried about, but it did have its moments.) This resulted in the round tumbling and shattering on the thicker armor behind. THe fact at they also helped against shaped charge weapons was discovered after teh fact and caused them to be used on later model tanks, but their origin was in response to early vulnerability to ATR's PS to change something in teh OOBs just use the editor provided (spwaweditor.exe I think its called in teh main folder), go to the weapons button of the country of your choice and change the data. Can't guarentee bad things won't happen (usually things like "inappropriate" sounds or graphics that are hard coded to certain ranges of values) but generally they don't affect game play. Experimenting with it is easy...just remember to back up your original set into the OOB folder for safe keeping. [ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]

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Post #: 29

- 8/11/2001 4:11:00 AM

Grumble

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From: Omaha, NE, USA
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quote:

?? Rifle match shooters can put a rifle round in a 1m circle at 600 yards 90% of the time from prone position with no support. Accuracy is underrated if anything, since most of these are semiautomatic weapons and each "shot" is more than one bullet.

My final point and then I'll shut up and let Paul get back to work :) We aren't talking match shooters here. These are semiautomatic, iron-sights weapons, being fired under combat conditions-fear, physical fatigue, dust/haze/WIND. Consider that a trunnioned (therefore relatively fixed) larger caliber weapon, with a telescopic sighting system have difficulty achieving this level of accuracy (thinking 20mm-37mm here); that's my contention. Off my soapbox for the weekend.

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Post #: 30