Infantry shelters & trenches?

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Infantry shelters & trenches? - 8/13/2001 7:46:00 PM

Jarkko

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Hi Have anybody been trying to use bunkers as shelters of infantry (squads)? The real tactics of WWII era seems to have included infantry taking shelter from bunkers during artillery barrage and rushing to their trenches to immediatealy after barrage moves off from positions. I am asking this because I have been working with scenario in which this would be important but I have been unsuccessful to get it happen (bunkers don't seem to be taking carry number with any editor, presumably this would be needed to get infantry inside them). Is there any other way to get around this except modifying oob-file? Allso, it seems that trenches still are at height -1 no matter what is the terrain height around them, this makes putting trenches to hills pointless (if you put trench for example on level 20 hill, the troops on that trench are not going to see outside that trench). Considering that fortified defence lines were usually build on hills (atleast in here) the whole trench-thing seems to be little use.

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- 8/13/2001 9:28:00 PM

Larry Holt

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Bunkers only hold their own crew. You can not put troops in them. The best that you can do is to put entrenchments for troops to occupy. In a similar scenario, I put entrenchments in the main location but also in alternate locations.

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- 8/13/2001 9:55:00 PM

kord

Posts: 29
Joined: 7/5/2001
From: Rouen, France
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About bunkers: There is perhaps the possibility to simulate such bunkers using stone houses... (?) About trenches: I had the same problem and did not found any valuable solution. I've seen this topic in the "Special How to" section at the end of WaW manual, concerning F. Chlanda's Map Editor (bottom of p.224). But it's still "to be prepared". Does someone have more info on that ? Best regards,
Kord

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- 8/13/2001 11:02:00 PM

Bing

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From: Gaylord, MI, USA
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If the trenches could be made to be also "Fortified" I believe an extra level of protection would be given to troops in the hex. Since v6.1 seems to me the fortified hexes are tougher. Now, if the designer could make the trenches fortified AND "Stone Building" the trench would be a real trap for the attacker. As it stands now tracked vehicles simply drive over the trench and through barbed wire as if it did not exist. Bing

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- 8/14/2001 4:15:00 AM

G Van Horne

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Joined: 3/25/2000
From: Souris, Manitoba, Canada
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Jarkko...
I made a new "bunker" for building scenerios. (I made it avail for Dec 49) I changed the carry capacity with the editor and I plan to make a new .shp for it later. I plan to use it for making a defencive area that is being bombarded quite heavily and I will place them all over.( to simulate a patrol thru an enemy held area) I did, however, remove its weapons and upped it's armor to act as abandoned. I also gave it dischargers to simulate the guys inside popping smoke to escape. I have tested it and it works quite well. I will do more testing tho.
Garth

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- 8/14/2001 8:47:00 AM

Lynx

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From: Vancouver
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I've found the trenches to be very effective. There are limitations to all things. If there's a desire for trenches to become stone houses, then just buy bunkers. A 7.62 nato bullet will go through 7 sandbags. How is a trench going to stop bullets like a stone wall? I've dug more trenches than I cared to, I guarantee you that if a tank wanted to go over or through it, it will. The troops in a trench are great in defence, agianst other inf, the trench equiv effect for a tank is, yes, an ATG. A squad in dug in possitions will also have to be considered to be in all around defence with two man trenches. The shell scrapes that a squad can go into once they go to ground in a battle will only protect against ground hugging shrapnel. Only the largest shell sizes seem to have any real effect on the troops in a trench, so anymore improvements would just make them into concrete emplacement equivalents. That may suit the guy in defence, but what is the plan when you attack? Lynx

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- 8/14/2001 2:09:00 PM

Jarkko

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Joined: 1/6/2001
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quote:

Originally posted by G Van Horne:
Jarkko...
I made a new "bunker" for building scenerios. (I made it avail for Dec 49) I changed the carry capacity with the editor and I plan to make a new .shp for it later. I plan to use it for making a defencive area that is being bombarded quite heavily and I will place them all over.( to simulate a patrol thru an enemy held area) I did, however, remove its weapons and upped it's armor to act as abandoned. I also gave it dischargers to simulate the guys inside popping smoke to escape. I have tested it and it works quite well. I will do more testing tho.
Garth

Thanks for telling me, it sounds just the thing that might work. The main thing from which I would like to protect those infantry squads is off-map artillery (the attacking side is going to have a huge amount of artillery). The scenario I am working is about Soviet attack against Finnish Summa Village sector of Mannerheim line. This page should give some idea what kind of place I am talking about:
http://www.mannerheim-line.ru/summakyla.htm I have done some testing with putting a bunker in trench (this type of shelter should not be able to see anything), removing all weapons from it etc and decreasing its size to 0 (should make it harder to spot).

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- 8/15/2001 1:32:00 AM

RockinHarry

Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
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quote:

Originally posted by Jarkko:
Hi Have anybody been trying to use bunkers as shelters of infantry (squads)? The real tactics of WWII era seems to have included infantry taking shelter from bunkers during artillery barrage and rushing to their trenches to immediatealy after barrage moves off from positions. I am asking this because I have been working with scenario in which this would be important but I have been unsuccessful to get it happen (bunkers don't seem to be taking carry number with any editor, presumably this would be needed to get infantry inside them). Is there any other way to get around this except modifying oob-file? Allso, it seems that trenches still are at height -1 no matter what is the terrain height around them, this makes putting trenches to hills pointless (if you put trench for example on level 20 hill, the troops on that trench are not going to see outside that trench). Considering that fortified defence lines were usually build on hills (atleast in here) the whole trench-thing seems to be little use.

Hi all, sorry for the incompleteness of the "How to..." section in the manual. Originally the whole section wasn�t intended to be part of it. To the problem: You�re confidant with Freds Map Editor? You can apply the "entrenchment" status to any hex without using the sandbags. At the same time you can take any shape (graphic) you find most apropriate to portray trenchlines/trenches in this custom entrenchment hex. You can download my Doc File with an example map, you should find all needed info there. Take the example map and investigate the "trenches" on the hill with Freds Map Edit to see how it goes. http://members.surfeu.de/ug2010/SPWAW/FredsMapEdV1_1.zip Bunkers/pillboxes as loaders: Actually there are several ways to go.
1. As G van Horne states...make new unit in OOB. Disadvantage: Everybody needs to have the modified OOB to use the new unit properly. 2. You can load any unit on any other unit ONCE(!), by first loading a legal unit. Example: Sniper on jeep. Access Sniper unit with N key cycling and change it (while loaded) to anything else (R-key). (Even pillbox or ship...)
This way you can achieve pretty weird Loader/Loadee combinations!

3. More elegant and compatible with any gamers OOB is editing a load capable unit to some kind of pillbox. Do you know the railcar/tarpin unit in 1949 Norway OOB? It�s actually tank destroyer class and unarmed. Give it apropriate armor on sides and top to simulate it�s actually below earth level (..faking). Make it size 0, give it high morale and experience ratings so it�s not discovered even by infantry too easily. Possibly remove its Radio.(...if AI) See also italy 44 scenario. Open it in Editor and investigate the dugout/cellar units. http://members.surfeu.de/ug2010/SPWAW/AfterCassino44Rev3.zip Hope this helps BTW: right click and "save target as.." to grab the files.
__________
Harry

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- 8/15/2001 3:15:00 PM

Jarkko

Posts: 75
Joined: 1/6/2001
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quote:

Originally posted by RockinHarry:
Hi all,
--- Some extremely good advices --- __________
Harry

Thanks, that info helped a lot. I have done very little with Freds map editor (only checked a bit what kind of thigs it can do), after this I take a closer look. I will probably go with option 3 with the bunkers sheltering infantry as it seems to be the best choice.

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