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US Army air transport unit speeds - 9/8/2001 9:34:00 AM

Easy8

Posts: 324
Joined: 6/10/2001
From: Austin, Tx
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I was playing the pursuit scenario in the Utah to Rhine campaign. Since most of my core forces are Rangers and the VP hexes are pts/turn, I purchased air transports and gliders as my support units, thinking that a mini Market-Garden would be fun and the fastest way to get them to the VH's at the far edge of the board. Loaded them up and started turn 1. The movement rating for the transports is 3 or 4. Checked the encyclopedia and that is correct. What am I doing wrong?

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Post #: 1

- 9/8/2001 11:02:00 AM

LeibstandartePzD

Posts: 130
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: NW Indiana, (Valpo) USA
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During the setup phase you have to load the Rangers on the transports and gliders and then using the parachute and glider buttons on the left of the screen plot the landing points as with artillery strikes. If you do not then the aircraft act sort of like ground vehicles with very slow movement. I hope this clears it up for you.

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Respectfully,
Jason E. Otto
Former member of the 8th US Cavalry and a grandson of a Leibstandarte tanker.

"It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech

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- 9/8/2001 11:13:00 AM

Randy

Posts: 1172
Joined: 8/22/2000
From: Torrance, Calif. USA
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If you want to change this, you have to go into the OOB editor to change the speeds. When I fly the cargo aircraft manually (only in the scenario
editor) I have the speed set at about 40-50. Hope this helps.

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Randy

The United States Marines: America's 911 Force-The Tip of the Spear

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Post #: 3

- 9/8/2001 3:41:00 PM

skukko

Posts: 1928
Joined: 10/24/2000
From: Finland
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Randy: You just revealed one great thing to me

: to drive manually ACs. I did get inspired. Now how do I get Stukas on board and exit hex for them ...let me see... LOL thanx

mosh

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salute

mosh

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Post #: 4

- 9/8/2001 4:26:00 PM

ruxius

Posts: 909
Joined: 5/5/2000
From: ITALY
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OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH
FINALLY YOU ASK ABOUT THIS !!!
I felt VERY VERY ALONE A Lot of time ago when suggesting to MAtrix about this...
What is the problem : the cargo planes I always figured they should be used to load units and to carry them behind enemy lines ! that's their combat role in the battlefield...
Now their speed is set to 3 or sometimes to 4
that is THE SAME SPEED that is set for ground attack planes..
Now I do not know how are the mechanismas which stands behind the game's animation and which let you see the aircraft to come in ,to attack an hex and then exiting the map...maybe that animation needs a speed of 3 or 4 to work properly... But this is a fact : cargo and gliders planes (maybe for being into that same category) inherited the same speed ! I criticized this carachteristic of the aircrafts long time ago , because it makes that planes really UNUSEFUL and DANGEROUS in the battlefield .
For which reason you should purchase them and put your units into an unsafe transport when it offers a speed EQUAL to what infantry usually do running by feet ?
I wondered if any advantage ,except a correct OOB need for completion , could be found using these units..
But...
These Aircrafts go under fire of each type of enemy's weapon..and they cannot return fire (this is a disadvantage compared to units on feet) so they cannot be used to fly upon enemy lines...if you do not want they to be destroyed with their load..
They cannot also try to find free passages through the enemy frontline because their speed is too low So what we have to do ? CHANGing THEIR SPEED is the only natural way to use them efficiently..like you wrote here-- NOW I think MAtrix's OOB should ALWAYS be the standard to which referring to ...and any local change to the OOBs should regard only some particular tastes of any artistic player..
NOT a need for all the gamers !
Playing against opponents requires a formal standard OOB's definition...so I think this is a issue to be suggested to them .. I asked them about this but maybe it could have been a minor issue at that time or it may involve some major problems to the code and it's not the case to look at it..I don't know
but now that someone else found this point
PLEASE let's pursue it ALL TOGHETER so we may wake up an official interest like has always been in Matrix's tradition !
Finally some notes about compatibility...
maybe useful for Combat Leader...
--------------------------------------------
Now we have a well defined class of infantry called paratroopers..and MAtrix provided a delightful animation to manage their landing on ground..
Transport planes class of weapons should have their own technical properties which distinguish
their loaded units from paratroopers !
This is a point to be considered for giving each unit its own particular design.
It's clear now that they should not act like paratroopers...their load is not meant to be parachuted into ground but better it should be unloaded after the aircraft landed ground !
This may open a discussion about this new possible stance for an sircraft of this class...
Instead of Advance /defense they may have
In Flight/Landing/Landed each stance with its own features..for instance when flying they can only be hit by AA fire..and not any rifle can cause damage to them...also rifles can be dangerous in the LAndind and in the LAnded stance... As regards landing I think Matrix is very near to give here a positive solution : in fact the starting point is that very good concept currently applied to gliders..they may crash when landing if terrain
is not comfortable for a landing..
Why not introducing a button for a cargo to land ? and a test if landing on a rock is very dangerous rather than landing on a paved road ?
Here I should be brief...but a way Combat LEader can easily overcame SPWAW is in giving some building a more advanced role in the battlefield..
Railroad station , airports and brigdes can be extended and have a CLASS like the units have..maybe some features can be customizable..
So designing a new graphic building should also
give it a class to belong to...
Never stop any progress if you can ! PEOPLE MAtrix gave us a mouth to speak..and they keep for themself an always opened EAR.. SO LET's TALK About this point ! Ruxius
Tahnks for attention !

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Post #: 5

- 9/8/2001 4:44:00 PM

AJVa

Posts: 69
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From: SF
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ruxius: Now their speed is set to 3 or sometimes to 4
that is THE SAME SPEED that is set for ground attack planes.. snip ...I criticized this carachteristic of the aircrafts long time ago , because it makes that planes really UNUSEFUL and DANGEROUS in the battlefield . I don�t get it. Isn�t this the way it should be. Taxing a cargo plane on the battlefield is certainly dangerous. Flying over is another matter (a bit faster and thus safer method of transporting your paras

).

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Post #: 6

- 9/8/2001 6:10:00 PM

john g

Posts: 984
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From: college station, tx usa
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quote:

Originally posted by AJV:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ruxius: Now their speed is set to 3 or sometimes to 4
that is THE SAME SPEED that is set for ground attack planes.. snip ...I criticized this carachteristic of the aircrafts long time ago , because it makes that planes really UNUSEFUL and DANGEROUS in the battlefield . I don�t get it. Isn�t this the way it should be. Taxing a cargo plane on the battlefield is certainly dangerous. Flying over is another matter (a bit faster and thus safer method of transporting your paras ).

In real life those cargo pilots are doing about 100-120 mph and wishing they could be anywhere else. They have to come in straight, slow and level to do a combat drop, which makes them easy targets for any flak gun in the area. No pilot could jink his plane around looking for a clear spot to drop his troops, they just steered towards the prearranged drop spot and unloaded their troops like they were dropping a bomb load. The built in mechanism for dropping paras is closer to how it really happened than allowing a plane to fly freely and drop the paras where it might be clear of enemy troops. Playing WWII campagins with both German and Brits and when designing an Eban Emael and Crete scenarios (for my own use, not for distribution) I had no problems getting the planes to enter where I wanted them to and drop somewhere near the drop zone. If anything, the ability to drop a company size unit in a small compact area is too good, try sometime where the units are spread all over the map and you have to collect them a sqaud at a time as they make their way to the rendevous point. If you have the ability to fly the plane to the exact point that you want to drop, you ignore the historical fact that pilots often dropped their troops miles from their drop zone. This in spite of the fact that airborne operations were planned to death. The British paras of the 1st Airborne Div defended their drop zone near Arnhem not because it was important ground, but because it was their designated drop zone. That is where the planes were planned to fly, and that is where they went, despite the fact that German troops were stationed right on the edge of the fields.
thanks, John.

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- 9/8/2001 11:17:00 PM

AJVa

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quote:

Originally posted by john g:

If anything, the ability to drop a company size unit in a small compact area is too good, try sometime where the units are spread all over the map and you have to collect them a sqaud at a time as they make their way to the rendevous point. If you have the ability to fly the plane to the exact point that you want to drop, you ignore the historical fact that pilots often dropped their troops miles from their drop zone. This in spite of the fact that airborne operations were planned to death.

Agree 100%.
Thanks, AJV [ September 08, 2001: Message edited by: AJV ]

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- 9/8/2001 11:52:00 PM

ruxius

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Sorry AJV and John g , my not perfect english sometimes makes me unable to understand well everything..but I should say that in my long post I was not talking about planes which drop paratroopers...that planes are well designed in my opinion..and they need no change..
But you know in the game we manage two categories of cargo planes..the first are AI controlled..the second are the Cargo aircrafts you control like all other common units along the battlefield What I wrote can be summarized this way : is it
possible to have that aircrafts moving at speed 3
while a feet squad can move faster ? how could an armored car move 30 hex per turn while a cargo plane is so slow ? (physics say that a plane needs speed to fly )I think it's easy to figure that speed may be more an old inheritance of the old SP1 OOBs than a reasoned feature from MAtrix
I can't find any reason to keep them at speed 3 ..also I tried to list some reasons to support this point of view and the first posts seemed to show a need from some players that I only expressed with more details... ok but now let's try to believe that speed is reasonable ...I can only figure that speed wants to represent this fact : they are so high in the sky that they seem to cross the battlefield very slowly..if this hypothesis holds let me say they cannot be hit by rifles...
Have you tried to load an infantry platoon onto them and then fly over dug-in infantry enemies ?
I don't think you will never purchase them in a PBEM challenge... So only historical reasons to have that speed
if you want to use them..but are we sure their historical presence can not be dressed of some logical features ?
it's so simple : highten that speed...
Bye [ September 08, 2001: Message edited by: ruxius ]

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Post #: 9

- 9/9/2001 1:16:00 AM

john g

Posts: 984
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From: college station, tx usa
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quote:

Originally posted by ruxius:
Sorry AJV and John g , my not perfect english sometimes makes me unable to understand well everything..but I should say that in my long post I was not talking about planes which drop paratroopers...that planes are well designed in my opinion..and they need no change..
But you know in the game we manage two categories of cargo planes..the first are AI controlled..the second are the Cargo aircrafts you control like all other common units along the battlefield What I wrote can be summarized this way : is it
possible to have that aircrafts moving at speed 3
while a feet squad can move faster ? how could an armored car move 30 hex per turn while a cargo plane is so slow ? (physics say that a plane needs speed to fly )I think it's easy to figure that speed may be more an old inheritance of the old SP1 OOBs than a reasoned feature from MAtrix
I can't find any reason to keep them at speed 3 ..also I tried to list some reasons to support this point of view and the first posts seemed to show a need from some players that I only expressed with more details... ok but now let's try to believe that speed is reasonable ...I can only figure that speed wants to represent this fact : they are so high in the sky that they seem to cross the battlefield very slowly..if this hypothesis holds let me say they cannot be hit by rifles...
Have you tried to load an infantry platoon onto them and then fly over dug-in infantry enemies ?
I don't think you will never purchase them in a PBEM challenge... So only historical reasons to have that speed
if you want to use them..but are we sure their historical presence can not be dressed of some logical features ?
it's so simple : highten that speed...
Bye [ September 08, 2001: Message edited by: ruxius ]

The problem is that the cargo planes are not supposed to be used in the way that you want them to. If you allow planes to fly across the map hex by hex the way you want, they then become the perfect recon that was done away with when the Storch was eliminated. In the deploy phase you set paratroop drop zones, that is the correct way to use cargo aircraft. Assign each a hex (and optionally a turn of arrival). They then fly across the map, drop and exit the map all one one turn just as they should with a 100+mph speed. The speed 3 is a factor in the way the code handles aircraft, since faster aircraft are harder to hit. Just like the fact that aircraft mgs will penetrate armor due to the extra speed they get by being fired from a 400mph aircraft. Only in the Lightning Strikes scenario are they used as you are trying to do. That was a special case where cargo aircraft were flown onto a landing strip under fire, and to be honest the game engine allows the player to fly the planes into trees if he wants, but that is just a limit of the game engine in representing a rare occurance. If you stick to using the planes as designed, you will have a success rate that exceeds history. As it was no air drop went 100% as planned. Most were disasters that were pulled from the trashcan by the actions of the elite soldiers that dropped. A example is a battle I played vs the ai back with v4 of the rules. It was after the introduction of the ability to drop paras after the prebombardment turn. It was my first time using the ability to use that so I set the paras to drop turn 4 on the rear vic hex area in a meeting engagement map, assuming that the ai would have moved all units forward and I would catch them by surprise. Much to my dismay when the drop landed I had nearly 2 companies of paras in a battalion level tank park. 50-60 enemy tanks were in and around my drop zone. By the time the carnage was overand the survivors hit in a nearby forest the paras were reduced to one mg and one weak squad. They did function as spotters for my tanks who arrived there several turns after the drop. Did the drop go as planned? NO! Did they tie up almost all the enemy armor while I was rolling forward, definately. Did they help spot enemy tanks from behind for my tanks to shoot at, yes. As it was I ended that battle with a decisive, and I learned something new about how the ai deploys for battle. If you play with a realistic limitation on spec ops, then airborne and gliders are the only way to insert infantry into the rear of the enemy, and yes I would use them, if used the correct way.
thanks, John.

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Post #: 10

- 9/9/2001 12:05:00 PM

Major Destruction

Posts: 881
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From: Canada
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quote:

Originally posted by john g:
The problem is that the cargo planes are not supposed to be used in the way that you want them to. thanks, John.

Absolutely. You must assign the landing zones, the points of delivery and the time of the drop during your deployment. During deployment, load up your transports and assign them a drop zone.
Load up your gliders and assign them a delivery point. Adjust the turn of the drop/delivery as you wish. Don't drive/tow your gliders across the battlefield. That has never been proven to be a satisfactory method of delivery.

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- 9/9/2001 6:17:00 PM

ruxius

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From: ITALY
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Ok...Due to your insistance I had to look one thing to understand better what you mean..and I found one very great surprise to me ! The second category of Cargo aircrafts I mentioned in my early posts doesn't exist anymore in the game..it has been removed from the OOB!! I have been so shocked by the last time I manually drove them to unload units behind enemy lines at speed 3 that I decided to never purchase them anymore..
so I didn't know they had been removed..sorry !
In this case let me say their current speed is correct and needs no change..and now I also understand the possible misuse that can be done with them..using them zig-zaging to spot enemies and looking for a better drop is really anti-historical..
Better remove them rather than having them used not properly ! I agree !
---------------------------------
Now please consider cleared the last point and follow me about this NEW topic called :

"how manually-driven cargoplanes can be introduced into the battlefield without
the negative issues discussed before ? "

I am very interested in finding here a new project (maybe useful for Combat LEader ) which can extend SPWAW with three new EXCITING combat situations following the introduction of that planes : a) Scenarios like the catching of remnants in Stalingrad..where planes had to land through enemy fire to drop supplies and load wounded men ... b) The ground-attack aircrafts fighting as a ground target such kind of aircrafts in the battlefield.. c) a new CLASS of aircrafts : the interceptors.. a new animation -AI controlled - acting like usually do air ground aircrafts but meant to play the "fighters" role.. Here is the procedure :
PlayerA sets a ground attack in hex X,Y for turn ZZZ;PlayB set two fighters in patrolling the battlefield from turn 5 to turn 8 (some limits should be provided)
If turn ZZZ is out of that range the patrolling interceptors are meant to be patrolling elsewhere and they are not available at that moment into the battlefield.
IF turn ZZZ belongs to the range 5-8 there will be an animation (togheter to the one of the PlayA's attacking ground aircraft ) which shows the fighters in action (maybe one after another)..randomly , according to suppression experience eccecc.(all normal SPWAW factors ) , they can destroy or hit the aircraft attacking. Obviously PlayA can decide to purchase himself some escort fighters and set their reaction to the same turn of the ground attack .
Can you figure how cool and intense could be this brief air battle which will take place upon the battlefield ? Since SPWAW lacks aero-naval major extensions and since I personally think we should NEVER limit our imagination trying to improve this wonderful game I am looking for people who can contribute to give always new dimensions to SPWAW (or Combat Leader..) with their interest and support what if this has never been done in the past ? we will never had infiltrators !
At least as regards the re-introduction of landing aircrafts (that would extend SPWAW to the new concept of giving a class also to the buildings !!!...and we will have the airports !) we can think to give that aircrafts 0-spotting...
and also a new parameter which controls spinning
you know ?
Shots 0:0:0:0
Moves 34
Spinning 3

I mean these aircrafts can move only towards where they are currently facing..(you can find the
concept of facing when a vehicle is immobilized)
and their facing can be changed only with spinning points,which are consumed like movements
points..and are very very few ! PLEASE DON'T THINK THIS MAY APPLY TO SPWAW !
it requires too much work ! I know ! I have only the hope that Combat Leader could extend SPWAW where SPWAW never dared... And again I say there is some lack about aereo-naval situations.. Tahnk you for so much attention !

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Post #: 12

- 9/10/2001 11:24:00 AM

Randy

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I have changed the speed of my cargo aircraft to control them manually, and have used them to carry airlanded infantry. I have also renamed the C47 the C87/C119(Flying Boxcar) which came out around 1949/1952 to simulate early light
airmech ops using jeeps, bren gun carriers and M22
Locust light tanks. I know its not historical but
I'm trying out todays tactics w/ post WWII weapons. Plus its the best I can do till SPWAW Modern/Combat Leader come out.

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Randy

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Post #: 13

- 9/10/2001 7:54:00 PM

ruxius

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after all Still stands this sort of need !

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Post #: 14

- 9/12/2001 7:22:00 AM

Easy8

Posts: 324
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From: Austin, Tx
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Thanks to all for your timely responses. This is what makes the Matrixgames on-line community the best I've seen. While playing with the airdrop assignment button, I found the infiltration assignment button. Any comments on this feature?

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Post #: 15

- 9/12/2001 4:45:00 PM

john g

Posts: 984
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From: college station, tx usa
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quote:

Originally posted by Easy8:
Thanks to all for your timely responses. This is what makes the Matrixgames on-line community the best I've seen. While playing with the airdrop assignment button, I found the infiltration assignment button. Any comments on this feature?

For the British army who don't get airborne until Nov 42 but have commandos in June 40, the abiility to get infantry into their enemy's back area is dependant on this. I use it all the time. Spec-ops, commandos, rangers, they all use it and it can be quite effective if used in force and at the right point.
thanks, John.

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Post #: 16

- 9/15/2001 6:39:00 AM

ruxius

Posts: 909
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From: ITALY
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Let me say ,first time you try it ....and you will fall in love with ...
One of the best original thing in SPWAW... I am trying to do my best to help SPWAW to introduce new panimations and particularities as my posts can show...
I am sure you will like it ...

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Post #: 17