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Airplane FO - 2/28/2004 9:57:06 AM

Gavris Narcis

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I want to make a suggestion for next version of game: the artillery FO airplanes which were used in a big measure by many minor countries involved in WW2. Either included in helicopter class or created new class with the same capabilities.

Leo.

Post #: 1

RE: Airplane FO - 2/28/2004 5:34:32 PM

BruceAZ

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That would be cool!

While there at it mabe they can come up with terr overlay icon for the bridges to give us some realistic looking bridges. Harry, you reading this? Harry has the gift...

Recon
Semper Fi

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RE: Airplane FO - 2/28/2004 7:58:08 PM

Rune Iversen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gavris Narcis

I want to make a suggestion for next version of game: the artillery FO airplanes which were used in a big measure by many minor countries involved in WW2. Either included in helicopter class or created new class with the same capabilities.

Leo.

Was ruled out of WaW long ago due to abuse.

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RE: Airplane FO - 2/28/2004 8:44:51 PM

Charles2222

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Rune is partially right. The main reason given IIRC by PV is that they weren't used with such small forces, and even if they were (when the inevitable argument that some small formations would benefit off a larger formation's aerial recon) the information wouldn't be relayed to them quick enough to matter.

While in general that is true enough, I've the feeling that General Rommel, among others (and of course our force isn't commanded by a general) not only reconned spearheads of AFV's at times, but "might" have also landed at their site instead of going directly back to HQ. Rommel was freuqently known to drop in on attacks to motivate the troops, but whether he flew to them to also give them any recon he had direct (seems reasonable that it would happen at least incidentally at times) from his flights remains to be seen.

BTW, I play SPWW2 fairly regularly and though it does allow you to have a recon plane at times, at least in the Storch's case, mine was always getting shot down lasting no longer than 2 sorties. The little peek I got I'd get from regular airtrikes in the first place and the Storch though of possibly 'some' use just ended up a waste for me. If the Storch wouldn't get shot down that would be another story, but getting shot down made it worthless. Perhaps I didn't experiment with it enough?

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RE: Airplane FO - 2/28/2004 8:46:56 PM

Rune Iversen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Rune is partially right. The main reason given IIRC by PV is that they weren't used with such small forces, and even if they were (when the inevitable argument that some small formations would benefit off a larger formation's aerial recon) the information wouldn't be relayed to them quick enough to matter.

While in general that is true enough, I've the feeling that General Rommel, among others (and of course our force isn't commanded by a general) not only reconned spearheads of AFV's at times, but "might" have also landed at their site instead of going directly back to HQ. Rommel was freuqently known to drop in on attacks to motivate the troops, but whether he flew to them to also give them any recon he had direct (seems reasonable that it would happen at least incidentally at times) from his flights remains to be seen.

BTW, I play SPWW2 fairly regularly and though it does allow you to have a recon plane at times, at least in the Storch's case, mine was always getting shot down lasting no longer than 2 sorties. The little peek I got I'd get from regular airtrikes in the first place and the Storch though of possibly 'some' use just ended up a waste for me. If the Storch wouldn't get shot down that would be another story, but getting shot down made it worthless. Perhaps I didn't experiment with it enough?

Well, the US army had them available at divisional level and in independent artillery battalions too. But again, they were yanked from the game due to overuse (and because they were very hard to shoot down)

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RE: Airplane FO - 2/28/2004 8:48:07 PM

Goblin

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How about air units see every unit on the board? Thats a good reason to not have them. I cant help but notice that you should maybe find a flight simulator, Gavris. It seems aircraft are your primary concern.

Goblin

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RE: Airplane FO - 2/28/2004 10:04:15 PM

Charles2222

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If I understand you correctly you're saying that SPWAW had 'recon' aircraft (IOW planes with no armanents whose sole purpose was to expose hexes), and since I've used SPWAW since it's inception there has never been such a thing to abuse. I was saying you were partially correct because if it had been implemented it would definitely be abused, but it wasn't there to abuse in the first place. Perhaps you're getting mixed up with SPWW2 or the original SPI-III?

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Post #: 7

RE: Airplane FO - 2/28/2004 10:21:45 PM

Rune Iversen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

If I understand you correctly you're saying that SPWAW had 'recon' aircraft (IOW planes with no armanents whose sole purpose was to expose hexes), and since I've used SPWAW since it's inception there has never been such a thing to abuse. I was saying you were partially correct because if it had been implemented it would definitely be abused, but it wasn't there to abuse in the first place. Perhaps you're getting mixed up with SPWW2 or the original SPI-III?

Nope, it was tried out and rejected.

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Post #: 8

RE: Airplane FO - 2/28/2004 10:42:26 PM

Charles2222

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So you're telling me it was abused even in testing?

I'm sorry, most of us have no idea what went on in testing, however, I'd never seen PV place your reasoning as the reasoning it wasn't done. Perhaps you think we're privy to what goes on in testing?

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RE: Airplane FO - 2/28/2004 11:00:39 PM

Rune Iversen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

So you're telling me it was abused even in testing?

I'm sorry, most of us have no idea what went on in testing, however, I'd never seen PV place your reasoning as the reasoning it wasn't done. Perhaps you think we're privy to what goes on in testing?

In the days of the Tiger team the testing took place under public audit. And Vebber has ruled out OBS planes on several occasions because they were prone to abuse.

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Post #: 10

RE: Airplane FO - 2/28/2004 11:03:05 PM

harlekwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

So you're telling me it was abused even in testing?

I'm sorry, most of us have no idea what went on in testing, however, I'd never seen PV place your reasoning as the reasoning it wasn't done. Perhaps you think we're privy to what goes on in testing?

In the days of the Tiger team the testing took place under public audit. And Vebber has ruled out OBS planes on several occasions because they were prone to abuse.

We were never even allowed to try because they were so abused before launch that they amde the decision to remove them from the game.

We are talking pre SPWAW 1.0...

< Message edited by harlekwin -- 2/28/2004 8:20:05 PM >

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RE: Airplane FO - 2/29/2004 12:30:19 AM

Robert J. Smead

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Be advised that SP2WW2 has obsevation planes that are plotted like artillery. You get a pass after plotting where you want it to go. This seems to take care of what some would call abuse. Yet, late war you get helicopters, which hover and spot.

Can't see this as abuse. This is exactly the effect in reality and is one of the reasons such equipment was devised. As a Recon Soldier in the US Army, I can avow that ISR(Intelligence Surveillance Reconnaissance) is what you live and die by. Again, countermeasures are available; buy and use sufficient AAA. Denying enemy Intel is incredibly important. In World War 2, Normandy, the Germans could hardly move during daylight hours, predominately due to spotters in light planes. Tough for the Germans, but makes up for Tigers and Panthers.

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RE: Airplane FO - 2/29/2004 3:13:25 AM

Charles2222

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It must be a matter of semantics, but both you and Rune speak in the same manner regarding recon air 'in the game'. From my perspective, if it was never in the game proper, IOW what the public could play, it was never in the game; pre-game (or more accurately pre-1.0 test) yes, in the game, no. In any event I wasn't aware that it had even been given a try in test.

< Message edited by Charles_22 -- 2/29/2004 7:17:59 PM >

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RE: Airplane FO - 2/29/2004 3:19:48 AM

harlekwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

It must be a matter of semantics, but both you and Rune speak in the same manner regarding recon air 'in the game'. From my perspective, if it was never in the game proper, IOW what the public could play, it was never in the game; pre-game (or more accurately pre-1.0 test) yes, in the game, no. In any event I wasn't aware that it had even been given a try in test.

..........

Okay Chuck.

Um it was in the "game" but never in the game the public got to play.

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RE: Airplane FO - 2/29/2004 5:31:19 PM

Charles2222

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It's why they call pre-games alphas and betas, because often enough the game people end up getting isn't the alpha or beta due to wise changes. Of course, these days, the difference between test, or alpha/beta, and the first version is often slim and none, due to over-hasty release.

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RE: Airplane FO - 2/29/2004 5:45:48 PM

Goblin

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It was still 'in-game' during the test play is his point. So they were abused 'in-game'.

Goblin

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RE: Airplane FO - 3/1/2004 12:29:25 PM

Gavris Narcis

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>>Be advised that SP2WW2 has obsevation planes that are plotted like artillery. You get a pass after plotting where you want it to go. This seems to take care of what some would call abuse. Yet, late war you get helicopters, which hover and spot.

Can't see this as abuse. This is exactly the effect in reality and is one of the reasons such equipment was devised. As a Recon Soldier in the US Army, I can avow that ISR(Intelligence Surveillance Reconnaissance) is what you live and die by. Again, countermeasures are available; buy and use sufficient AAA. Denying enemy Intel is incredibly important. In World War 2, Normandy, the Germans could hardly move during daylight hours, predominately due to spotters in light planes. Tough for the Germans, but makes up for Tigers and Panthers.

>>

You have definitively a good and corect perception. There are some guys in SPWAW staff which are breaking the development of this merveillous game from beginning. Another stupid idea is that because the abuse, we can't have a new airplane type, which are accurate and very usefull. This is just like we stop the knife productions because some delicvents use them for evil pourposes. It's stupid and wrong. Or, if I encounter an e-mail game partner which just play dishonest, I no longer play with him at all.
Definitelly some have preconceived bad ideas !
That's all.

Leo.

(in reply to Robert J. Smead)

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RE: Airplane FO - 3/1/2004 5:02:59 PM

Goblin

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Gavris-

There is a glitch in the game that allows aircraft to see every unit. It's random. It will sometimes even show the player on the mini-map. While I will point out errors in the OOB's this is not one of their mistakes. Its code, plain and simple. I recommend playing SPWW2, since the aircraft appear to be more accurately modeled.

Goblin

< Message edited by Goblin -- 3/1/2004 10:04:47 AM >

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RE: Airplane FO - 3/1/2004 5:05:04 PM

Robert J. Smead

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I like historical reality as much as possible, given the realization that the game is a "model" of reality; not actual reality and thus has inherent limitations. I am sure that it is also interesting to experiment somewhat as well. My next pursuits are evolution of force structure and tactics.

Many players seem to like limitations in general, in a variety of areas, across the entire spectrum of the SP series of games. Most seem derived to combat "abuses". In SPWAW, I really only prefer C&C off and can understand point limitations due to peoples's time restaints. If other people demand them however, I go along. I play exclusively PBEM and have faced a variety of opponents choices regarding forces used and their choice of tactics. Just about every game has been a learning experience whether win, lose or draw. I like to play without limits regarding what players select, or what the game itself offers.

This has yielded some scenarios , for example, in which I fought only against Tiger 1's, Panther's, some with IR, and Royal Tigers. I happened to win a couple of such games because of better tactics. Technical superiority and a historically rare force structure only went so far and did not yield success out of hand.

I do not consider myself an expert player by any means. My opinion regarding opponents choices is use whatever you want. Even if somebody only wants to use elite forces, super tanks, airborne, or massive artillery. The end result is my better understanding and use of combined arms.

In the particular issue of FO Aircraft. They are a reality, were available and were extensively used. In war rarely are assets disregarded by the successful.

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RE: Airplane FO - 3/1/2004 5:07:08 PM

harlekwin

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I agree they should be in, but it was not my call.

The powers that be made that judgement.

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