Rune Iversen
Posts: 3630
Joined: 7/20/2001
From: Copenhagen. Denmark
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Hi there,
would like to hear some opinions on the Mixed rifle concept:
Purpose: The current SPWAW game system produces a high degree of suppression for every shot that an infantry unit fires at an enemy infantry unit. Normally if one desires to lessen the effects of suppression in the game, one could tweak the preferences (Rout/Rally setting), but this then works for all units in the game, not just the infantry. Normally an infantry unit has upto 4 weapons available to shoot at another infantry unit (diregarding non infantry units for this topic). Dependent upon range itīs mostly the slot1 primary infantry weapon (any common rifle) and slot2 secondary weapon (mostly LMG). For each shot fired from these weapons, normally 2-3 suppression points are added to the attacked infantry (not regarding other factors that might cause additional suppression, like losses, ect.). This mounts to very high suppression quickly, if a number of units use both weapons (slot1 rifle / slot2 LMG) on the attacked infantry unit repeatedly. It too oftentimes happens f.e that dug-in infantry is routed out of its entrenchments, by accumulating dozens of suppression points and finally,..receiving just a single kill causes the unit to pull back!
As said, I speak of suppression accumulated by medium to long range infantry shooting and NOT artillery ect.!
The effects of shots are resolved (suppression+possible kills) for each weapon slot, one after another. No news you say.
However, something interesting actually happens all the time mostly unnoticed: Assuming the first shot (Rifles slot1) makes a moving enemy infantry unit to get pinned, so what happens with the following shot (LMG slot2)?! The shot is resolved on the "pinned" unit with much less effect! Normally one would think that an infantry squad would "volley" fire its infantry weapons and not one after another. Why should the most effective squad weapon (the LMG) fire, when the "target" can not be effectively hit anymore?
Well thatīs how SPWAW works, as itīs not a real time game, so the slot2 LMG mostly causes just 2-3 more suppression points, instead of doing the damage you would expect from this weapon, may it be a BAR or a MG42.
So the net effect in the game is that the LMG in slot2 does little and lots of unnecessary suppression is caused with above mentioned unrealistic effects!
Well, one solution would be to abandon the slot2 LMG weapon and merge it into a new weapon that resembles a rifle and LMG combined, with approriate firepower and range and then put into slot1! Unfortunately we canīt really finetune this new weapon with regard to the single real weapons performances. Example: Assuming a US infantry unit with crew of 10 has 9 M1 Garand rifles and 1 Bar LMG combined into a single weapon. Would it have considerable more or less firepower than a german squad of 10 with 9 K98k rifles and 1 LMG MG42??
I found that just raising HE kill for the combined (from now on "Mixed") weapon to 2, while preserving accuracy/range ect. ratings, is sufficient to simulate the effects of volley fire with rifles and LMG combined. That means higher probable kills with the first shot, but overall less suppression. Off course it depends still upon several factors, like terrain, enemy unit cautiously moving or moving fast ect. on how many kills can be achieved. The range is from no effect (targeted unit rolls a "saving throw"), to "wiping out" (enemy unit caught in the open while moving full speed!). The effect is similar to an (semi) automatic rifle like M1 Garand or SVT40 fired by 10 guys in volley fire. In fact the "Mixed" weapon has the same firepower/stats like the M1 Garand. The problem is, when you raise HE kill to say 3, then kills raise to unacceptable levels!
With the current unified "mixed" weapon stats, it means that all nations that use the "Mixed" weapon for infantry units in slot1 have roughly the same squad firepower than US squads equipped with the M1 Garand! However, other factors play a large role too! For example experience and leader skills, as well as whether the unit is given some "fire control" or even "range finder" ratings!
Ok. I play tested the new "Mixed" weapon and the overall effect is, dependent upon other unit skills/stats, that enemy infantry losses are roughly the same, but the kill range is wider! Also overall suppression is decreased, helping dug in units to hold their ground longer and help advancing units to keep moving! An additional effects is that infantry battles play almost twice as fast and chances for units to get into close combat are increased.J
The whole thing, as said is experimental and the weapons will only be available to scenario designers, if they wish to try this alternative method.
Donīt know whether many people would be willing to abandon their (largely ineffective) slot 2 MG42/BAR/Bren...or whatever LMG, but itīs worth a try for user made scenarios at least.
Note: Turn based games like Combat Leader uses the "Mixed/Volley/Volume" like fire resolution as well as "Combat Mission", which, real time though, computes fire effects of squad weapons (rifle/LMG/sub machine gun) as single volley.
What about the range of this strange combo? MGs can fire out more effectively to a larger range than rifles (or at least suppress effectively). If you as the SL wantīs your MG to open fire first,might I suggest you disable the slot 1 weapons instead.
Close combat and bayonet fighting was relatively rare in the ETO. What does that tell you?
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Ignoring the wulfir
Fighting the EUnuchs from within
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Printable Version
Mixed rifle concept - 
RE: Mixed rifle concept - 
Might work in a very small scenario but anything bigger than a few platoons? Forget it!
always takes his place, unless there's only one man left when losses are tallied, which, if CL did 'what I said' on the prior post, it would be nothing new. So, having said that, what I meant was that the detail would come in where there were individual soldiers names assigned to each gun. If Pvt. Biggles if manning a rifle and one of his LMG mate goes down, then Biggles wouldn't show as rifle anymore, but as the LMG man. Hmm, seems like adding individual names to guns, I'm guessing, isn't worth the return. Perhaps it would only be worth it if there was a chance the men were pinned down enough that nobody could reach the LMG where it had fallen. I don't think CL will be 'that' complex is what I meant, where you have a large database just for random names to guns.
) 
Might be that couple of other gamne stats need to be tweaked to get your idea working better!
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