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About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 2:07:00 AM   
BulletMagnet


Posts: 132
Joined: 8/29/2003
From: Ocala,Florida
Status: offline 		Hey guys
I always thought this tank and others in the series had a short barrelled gun for use against infantry,hence infantry support tank.Howver i just was playing a long camp as germans in 39 and due to a deperate situation i had to start shooting at long ranges(15-25) hexes.To my surprise i hit roughly 50 percent of the time stationary and 25 percent moving while firing.Anyone else see this?

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 2:12:21 AM   
Rune Iversen


Posts: 3630
Joined: 7/20/2001
From: Copenhagen. Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BulletMagnet

Hey guys
I always thought this tank and others in the series had a short barrelled gun for use against infantry,hence infantry support tank.Howver i just was playing a long camp as germans in 39 and due to a deperate situation i had to start shooting at long ranges(15-25) hexes.To my surprise i hit roughly 50 percent of the time stationary and 25 percent moving while firing.Anyone else see this?


Which set of OOBs were you using?

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 2:13:08 AM   
harlekwin


Posts: 5863
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: arkham asylum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BulletMagnet

Hey guys
I always thought this tank and others in the series had a short barrelled gun for use against infantry,hence infantry support tank.Howver i just was playing a long camp as germans in 39 and due to a deperate situation i had to start shooting at long ranges(15-25) hexes.To my surprise i hit roughly 50 percent of the time stationary and 25 percent moving while firing.Anyone else see this?


Perhaps you could post its stats as a favor?

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 2:16:30 AM   
BulletMagnet


Posts: 132
Joined: 8/29/2003
From: Ocala,Florida
Status: offline 		Your favorite version 8.1.0.0.0.0.0.1

Im not sure how to post the stats for it?savvy.Do know that its aweful funny to be plinking with infantry tanks though.Kats are bad enough dont need early war tanks acting like em too.BTW im a KAT driver!!!and a goblin disciple.

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 2:22:58 AM   
Rune Iversen


Posts: 3630
Joined: 7/20/2001
From: Copenhagen. Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BulletMagnet

Your favorite version 8.1.0.0.0.0.0.1

Im not sure how to post the stats for it?savvy.Do know that its aweful funny to be plinking with infantry tanks though.Kats are bad enough dont need early war tanks acting like em too.BTW im a KAT driver!!!and a goblin disciple.

Post the stats for the maingun, Rangefinder, Firecontrol and Targeting.

Then we can give you some answers

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 2:23:43 AM   
harlekwin


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From: arkham asylum
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BulletMagnet

Your favorite version 8.1.0.0.0.0.0.1

Im not sure how to post the stats for it?savvy.Do know that its aweful funny to be plinking with infantry tanks though.Kats are bad enough dont need early war tanks acting like em too.BTW im a KAT driver!!!and a goblin disciple.



Don't worry we will post them and analyze what the ratings mean using the manual as a good tutorial and a comparison to later post-ww2 tanks as a base.

Thanks for the question.

regards,
sven

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 2:26:04 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Why should an 'infantry tank' have less accurate gun than an 'anti tank' tank? 15 hexes isn't that long, 750 metres.
The weapon accuracy is actually less than for example German 37mm tank gun.

Voriax

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 2:29:18 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		The Pz-IVc/d has a 4/4 or a 4/5 I believe ands with early war armor being weak in general. I could see it being a real killer especially on anything British not named matilda. The sad fact is many gamers never use support tanks (other than Stugs ) so they don't know that they are pretty good tanks. The scott is a good example. Especially if the support tanks have heat rounds

< Message edited by VikingNo2 -- 3/5/2004 2:26:41 PM >

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Post #: 8
RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 2:30:07 AM   
harlekwin


Posts: 5863
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From: arkham asylum
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Voriax

Why should an 'infantry tank' have less accurate gun than an 'anti tank' tank? 15 hexes isn't that long, 750 metres.
The weapon accuracy is actually less than for example German 37mm tank gun.

Voriax




Vor I think he was merely a little bewildered at his effectiveness.

I am going to look into the ratings and translate the stats into real world examples.

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Post #: 9
RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 2:53:40 AM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Pz-IVc, 7.5cm KwK L/24

8.1.OOB:

FC 3
Targ 3
RgF 4

Max Range 160 (=40 hexes)
Accuracy 64

7.1 OOB

Others same, but Accuracy 40

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 3:00:17 AM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Values of SPWW2 of the same AFV translated to SPWAW-values.

FC 2
Targ 0
RgF 2

MR 240
Acc 24

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 3:18:38 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VikingNo2

The Pz-IVc/d has a 4/4 or a 4/5 I believe ands with early war armor being weak in general. I could see it being a real killer especially on anything British not named matilda. The sad fact is many gamers never use support tanks (other than Stugs ) so they don't know that they are pretty good tanks. The scott is a good example. Especially if the support tanks have heat rounds


I recommend them for their intended purpose. They are pretty cheap and really tear up the infantry if you can get close enough (~3 hexes).

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 3:21:42 AM   
Rune Iversen


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From: Copenhagen. Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Pz-IVc, 7.5cm KwK L/24

8.1.OOB:

FC 3
Targ 3
RgF 4

Max Range 160 (=40 hexes)
Accuracy 64

7.1 OOB

Others same, but Accuracy 40


Hmm...
Let´s see

An accuracy of 64/4 equals an ACC rating of 16 (for the 8.1 unit). The equivalent value of the Us 75mm M3 AP is 10 (for 7.1). Is anybody going to believe that the stump of a gun carried by the Pz4C is more accurate than the 75mm M3 carried by the Sherman.

I wonder if they scaled up the M4a1 Sherman as well.

Keke?

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 3:56:10 AM   
JJKettunen


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Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

I wonder if they scaled up the M4a1 Sherman as well.

Keke?


The answer is yes. From 40/3 to 68/3.

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Jyri Kettunen

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Post #: 14
RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 10:21:08 AM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		Early in the war the PzIVc is a fine medium tank. Simple as that. The only reason you wouldn't realise that is if you never play or study early war stuff. At which point it doesn't matter, cause middle to late in the war a PzIVc is a pile of crap.

Tomo

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Post #: 15
RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 12:04:30 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		What Tombstone says.

Before '42, a IVc is about as good as you get. And yea, I would believe it's at least as good as a early Sherm. Optics.

< Message edited by Belisarius -- 3/6/2004 11:01:05 AM >

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 2:57:35 PM   
harlekwin


Posts: 5863
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From: arkham asylum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

What Tombstone says.

Before '42, a IVc is about as good as you get. And yea, I would believe it's at least as good as a early Sherm. Optics.


Heh.

You are aware of the differing ballistic envelopes of the main guns and the differences in turret traverse speed and mechanism?

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 2:59:26 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

What Tombstone says.

Before '42, a IVc is about as good as you get. And yea, I would believe it's at least as good as a early Sherm. Optics.


optics may be, but the gun has only a caliber length of 24 , say 75 / L24 this should not be that good to hit other tanks on med or long distance...also i don´t know if the germans had good heat rounds available in the early years...any info ?

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Post #: 18
RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 3:04:00 PM   
BulletMagnet


Posts: 132
Joined: 8/29/2003
From: Ocala,Florida
Status: offline 		Thats what i was implying.Its a 75/24 SHORT barrel. I have no problem with short ranges.Its the long range hit/kills that seem odd.Seems more accurate than pz-iii's 37mm gun./

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 3:05:15 PM   
harlekwin


Posts: 5863
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: arkham asylum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BulletMagnet

Thats what i was implying.Its a 75/24 SHORT barrel. I have no problem with short ranges.Its the long range hit/kills that seem odd.Seems more accurate than pz-iii's 37mm gun./




well it had good optics....




the differences in the ballistic envelope and MV of the rounds is pretty profound.


I will make a post translating the ratings later today.

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 4:03:11 PM   
robot


Posts: 1438
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Covington Ky USA
Status: offline 		As you all know i play the long campaign exclusively. I have started an east and west campaign for the germans. I always use 2 sec of the pzs for support for my troops. Plus 2 sec in support for my 2 tank colums. At less then 10 hexes they are deadly. I also have a platoon of PZII. which i replace with Stugs as they become available.

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 4:11:03 PM   
mattenhoff

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 10/13/2003
Status: offline 		As pointed out many times here, the short barrel has a quite profound effect to the accuracy. Just the simple fact that te shell travels at lower speed, as you sure all know. It doesn't matter in short ranges or when shooting at the stationary targets, but one could assume that shooting a moving tank far away, would be quite hard with this gun (75L24). The travelling time of the shell could be a couple of seconds!

I recall reading about a HEAT - round for this gun, with around 100mm PEN. introduced in 1942, IIRC. After the 50mmL60 APCR came to use, it (the 75L24 HEAT) was of course somewhat second class solution...

Btw, the Hummel's heat round is a real killer! Lost an JS-2 to it? Was this the real situation??? I saw over 200mm PEN values in the log!!!

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 4:15:36 PM   
harlekwin


Posts: 5863
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: arkham asylum
Status: offline 		It is overrated. The L24 is being given performance not in keeping with its ballistic envelope. I suspect the reason behind this is an attempt to synthesize the percieved performance with human factors instead af a clinical look at the engineering ones.

The MV alone was 68.75% of the M3 add in turret traverse, and the stabilizer, and there are other reasons I suspect that more is being modeled than pure performance in an engineering sense.

My opinion is that eqpt. should be modeled based on engineering performance and that Human factors are modeled by Morale/EXP....

thus the Kar-98 would not have 3 to 7 sets of stats in my vision.

Others have different perspectives on this issue.

< Message edited by harlekwin -- 3/6/2004 9:46:06 AM >

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RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 5:13:14 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Muzzle velocity of 7.5cm KwK L/24 with APCBC-ammo is only 385m/s...One can compare it to other German guns with similar calibre and shell weights but better calibre length and muzzle velocity, and see that its accuracy is definitely overrated in the game.

Anyway there seems to be an overall tendency to improve every gun of the game, not systematically of course , which brings their performance more close to modern day statistics, not WWII...

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Post #: 24
RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 6:08:16 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
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From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Muzzle velocity of 7.5cm KwK L/24 with APCBC-ammo is only 385m/s...One can compare it to other German guns with similar calibre and shell weights but better calibre length and muzzle velocity, and see that its accuracy is definitely overrated in the game.

Anyway there seems to be an overall tendency to improve every gun of the game, not systematically of course , which brings their performance more close to modern day statistics, not WWII...


this is perhaps an early version of SPmodern ???

hey hurrayyyyy !!!

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Post #: 25
RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/6/2004 6:42:01 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank W.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Muzzle velocity of 7.5cm KwK L/24 with APCBC-ammo is only 385m/s...One can compare it to other German guns with similar calibre and shell weights but better calibre length and muzzle velocity, and see that its accuracy is definitely overrated in the game.

Anyway there seems to be an overall tendency to improve every gun of the game, not systematically of course , which brings their performance more close to modern day statistics, not WWII...


this is perhaps an early version of SPmodern ???

hey hurrayyyyy !!!


Well, it has been done already...

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Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

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Post #: 26
RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/7/2004 11:45:19 PM   
BulletMagnet


Posts: 132
Joined: 8/29/2003
From: Ocala,Florida
Status: offline 		So the pzIVc is as acurate as a sherman 75mm and as deadly?Sounds odd to me but im not a number cruncher.I thought lenght of barrel + improved acuracy?Is a sherman 105 the same way?

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Post #: 27
RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/8/2004 12:04:09 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Shermans M3 gun is more accurate and has almost twice the penetration power.

Point is, when you have relatively hard hitting 75mm gun against T-26, BT-7, and Brit Cruiser class tanks (paper thin armour) even a short barreled gun is deadly. Oh and Sherman M4A3 has also better fire control.

The 37mm guns may have bigger point blank penetration but their rounds lose energy faster so after a certain point the edge in power goes to the more massive round.


Voriax

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Post #: 28
RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/8/2004 12:27:28 AM   
BulletMagnet


Posts: 132
Joined: 8/29/2003
From: Ocala,Florida
Status: offline 		So do you guys use them as anti heavy armor tanks or close inf support? I usually find them useful against matildas which i can't penetrate with my pz=III's.Also why does my pzIIc's seem deadly up close with the apc rounds.Surely the Germans didnt run these up to Mbt's at point blank and start shooting? I have killed very heavy tanks with this tactic and it dosnt seem right.

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Post #: 29
RE: About pz IV-c's - 3/8/2004 12:38:25 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Well, they work in both roles. I'd say anti-armour as long as the AP ammo supply lasts. Of course this varies, depending of need.
The Pz-II's have a small amount of APCR ammunition with pen about 60. So when you are close with them you get high accuracy and rather deadly round. I don't consider Pz-II's especially effective...they usually go ahead of Pz-III/IV's as I consider loss of one Pz-II in ambush is 'acceptable loss'
As for tactic..well..the opfire eventually quits/lessens thus you can go close..not as easily as in original Steel Panthers but still.

Voriax

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Post #: 30
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