Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

No, I have shouted out about this problem before. The zero is very strong against the wildcats and P40. This is historically incorrect as they were in the main better planes and shot down zeros in pretty fair numbers. If you have a massive air battle between the two, the zeros will always slaughter the Allies. Even experieced Allies seem to get shot down

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

No, I have shouted out about this problem before. The zero is very strong against the wildcats and P40. This is historically incorrect as they were in the main better planes and shot down zeros in pretty fair numbers. If you have a massive air battle between the two, the zeros will always slaughter the Allies. Even experieced Allies seem to get shot down.

One problem is that losses are way too out of proportion to numbers involved. That is in massive air battles of say 200 planes on each side, the Allies might lose 120 planes. This is historically inaccruate but I doubt that it will be fixed at this point so it must be lived with.

Best way to deal with the super zeros is to slam the air base with massive heavies at high altitude. Initially, your losses will be high but damaged bases will cause more operational losses to defending fighters. A massive bomber hit followed up by a medium bomber hit might just close the base down. You can then whittle the zeros down.

Actually, the only real long term solution to the zero is to wait for the lightnings and corsairs to come into play. They will handle them just fine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

And nobody listened. The sad fact is that the F4F is by far the most underperforming aircraft in this game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

We didn't "all" agree to any such thing, Leo.

I have no interest in opening up that old can of worms again, so let's just say that I made a conclusory statement of my own unsupported opinion and let it go at that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hUMan bULLet

This to me just shows that the fact that the pilot factor is not being factored in as much as it should. Hell, you can get a group equipped with f4u corsairs with pilots with 30 experience, and put them up against zeros of 99exp and 99 morale, and I bet you get the same results...... A total massacre of the zeros...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

No, I have shouted out about this problem before. The zero is very strong against the wildcats and P40. This is historically incorrect as they were in the main better planes and shot down zeros in pretty fair numbers. If you have a massive air battle between the two, the zeros will always slaughter the Allies. Even experieced Allies seem to get shot down.

One problem is that losses are way too out of proportion to numbers involved. That is in massive air battles of say 200 planes on each side, the Allies might lose 120 planes. This is historically inaccruate but I doubt that it will be fixed at this point so it must be lived with.

Best way to deal with the super zeros is to slam the air base with massive heavies at high altitude. Initially, your losses will be high but damaged bases will cause more operational losses to defending fighters. A massive bomber hit followed up by a medium bomber hit might just close the base down. You can then whittle the zeros down.

Actually, the only real long term solution to the zero is to wait for the lightnings and corsairs to come into play. They will handle them just fine.

The Marine F4F squadrons vs. Zero fighters are bad example (they trade badly) but when USN F4F fight against them I see no special advantage for any side.

In many PBEMs I played in carrier vs. carrier battles (only real Zero vs. F4F test) I have seen all kinds of results and in many ocasions the F4F won...


Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

The Marine F4F squadrons vs. Zero fighters are bad example (they trade badly) but when USN F4F fight against them I see no special advantage for any side.

In many PBEMs I played in carrier vs. carrier battles (only real Zero vs. F4F test) I have seen all kinds of results and in many ocasions the F4F won...

quote:

ORIGINAL: pauk

greetings,

I'm concerned that this will be also case in WiTP, because i posted in WiTP thread (SEE: pilot transfers) and there is no clear anwser will be pilot experience much more involved in next (APSOLUTLY THE BEST GAME EVER) game...
it's too late for changing in UV, but not in WiTP....

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Nope, I am finding that even p40 squadrons and F4Fs with experience pilots are getting slaughtered. Mind you, this problem seems to be worse in large (massive) air battles. In small battles, the Allies 1st generation planes will take more losses than the zero but overall losses compared to participants are much more reasonable so it is not as damaging.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I agree to a point with you. Yours is a valid argument for game balance but not for historical accuracy. Japanese zeros and pilots were at a disadvantage to american aircraft and pilots from about August 1942 on. The reasons are varied, better tactics, better built planes, more reliable planes, better supports service, better flow of supplies, better mechanics, more spare parts, and most important planes with radios vs planes without radios. (sort of like fighting partially blinded)

I agree that overall, it all works out and I think the Allies have as good a chance or better of winning the big campaings, so I am not complaining too much. As I said, there are ways around the disparity.

However, historically there is no basis for the zero to be so superior to the P40 or wildcat as it is in the game. It just did not happen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I agree to a point with you. Yours is a valid argument for game balance but not for historical accuracy. Japanese zeros and pilots were at a disadvantage to american aircraft and pilots from about August 1942 on. The reasons are varied, better tactics, better built planes, more reliable planes, better supports service, better flow of supplies, better mechanics, more spare parts, and most important planes with radios vs planes without radios. (sort of like fighting partially blinded)

I agree that overall, it all works out and I think the Allies have as good a chance or better of winning the big campaings, so I am not complaining too much. As I said, there are ways around the disparity.

However, historically there is no basis for the zero to be so superior to the P40 or wildcat as it is in the game. It just did not happen.

I think the biggest issue here is that we don't know what's inside UV game engine (i.e. so-called "black box")...


We simply don't know what matters most in air-to-air combat:

- numbers?
- leader?
- altitude advantage?
- speed?
- rate of climb?
- numbers?
- pilot morale?
- pilot experience?
- pilot (and aircraft) fatigue?


What we do know is that UV designers created few Japanese CV (and two land ones) Zero squadrons with most excellent pilots that have higher EXP (experience) than USN CV pilots.

We also know that Japanese pilot situation quickly deteriorates - needed and unneeded (i.e. excess) pilot replacements quickly "water down" this high EXP Zero squadrons.


So... it all balances out eventually (or if you prefer - Allies have distinctive pilot advantage in just few months of gameplay when Japanese start getting en-mass needed and unneeded pilots in EXP range of 15-25...


The only question, IMHO, worth discussing is if the initial EXP advantage of few Zero squadrons historically warranted.

Again, IMHO, I strongly believe that is correct since the Japanese did bloody their pilots years before the war against allies started (and in combat all training is almost irrelevant until you really feel the first combat and bloody the men)...


Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I agree to a point with you. Yours is a valid argument for game balance but not for historical accuracy. Japanese zeros and pilots were at a disadvantage to american aircraft and pilots from about August 1942 on. The reasons are varied, better tactics, better built planes, more reliable planes, better supports service, better flow of supplies, better mechanics, more spare parts, and most important planes with radios vs planes without radios. (sort of like fighting partially blinded)

I agree that overall, it all works out and I think the Allies have as good a chance or better of winning the big campaings, so I am not complaining too much. As I said, there are ways around the disparity.

However, historically there is no basis for the zero to be so superior to the P40 or wildcat as it is in the game. It just did not happen.

I think the biggest issue here is that we don't know what's inside UV game engine (i.e. so-called "black box")...


We simply don't know what matters most in air-to-air combat:

- numbers?
- leader?
- altitude advantage?
- speed?
- rate of climb?
- numbers?
- pilot morale?
- pilot experience?
- pilot (and aircraft) fatigue?


What we do know is that UV designers created few Japanese CV (and two land ones) Zero squadrons with most excellent pilots that have higher EXP (experience) than USN CV pilots.

We also know that Japanese pilot situation quickly deteriorates - needed and unneeded (i.e. excess) pilot replacements quickly "water down" this high EXP Zero squadrons.


So... it all balances out eventually (or if you prefer - Allies have distinctive pilot advantage in just few months of gameplay when Japanese start getting en-mass needed and unneeded pilots in EXP range of 15-25...


The only question, IMHO, worth discussing is if the initial EXP advantage of few Zero squadrons historically warranted.

Again, IMHO, I strongly believe that is correct since the Japanese did bloody their pilots years before the war against allies started (and in combat all training is almost irrelevant until you really feel the first combat and bloody the men)...


Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Ignore that last one.

quote:


Well, yes... and we all have to remember that our favorite scenarios, #17 and #19 give the Japanese a much better pool of pilots so it is hard to make historical comparasions based on them. As I said before my only real complaint it the massive number of air casualties (to both sides) that occur in large air battles. They are out of proportion what really did happen in large battles. For some reason, small battles work much better. I think this is just a coding problem where an adjustment needs to be made.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
The saddest thing is that they constantly arrive with EXP 15-25 thus making many (I will not say all because of my opponents might be reading this) air units almost useless...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

Maybe the home islands cut the training program completely. Now they just send the guys directly from the recruitment office right to the front. I think EXP 15 for a pilot means he's seen a plane once. EXP 25 are the real recruitment aces; they've actually touched a plane before.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DoomedMantis

This is being looked at now, that is to increase the effect that pilot experience has on fights

quote:

ORIGINAL: pauk

greetings,

I'm concerned that this will be also case in WiTP, because i posted in WiTP thread (SEE: pilot transfers) and there is no clear anwser will be pilot experience much more involved in next (APSOLUTLY THE BEST GAME EVER) game...
it's too late for changing in UV, but not in WiTP....

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

What is the date of your campaign? I have one going as the Japanese and am about to reach Jan 1 of 43. I have yet to see this problem with the extra pilots-but have heard of it before. Although I have lost over 2200 planes, my squadron pilot pools are about normal. My pilot quality has dropped but not excessively.

My second question. These campaigns can be long. Did you start you campaign before the last patch or after? I have discovered that some of the bugs from games started pre patch can still stick around afterwards. My game is over a year old and has been through at least two patches?

I have two more campaigns going as the Japanese but they are in the early months.

I don't expect any more patches in this game. It works OK but Gary and Matrix are gonna focus on the new game. I hope they retro some stuff.