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C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/28/2004 12:40:33 AM   
cbclimber


Posts: 24
Joined: 9/8/2002
From: Missouri
Status: offline 		Will there be a mechanism for intelligence so the American can pull off a Midway or a Yamamoto assasination? It is the one thing missing from UV. How about intel briefing screen. Any Pac strategy game must have this!

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RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/28/2004 1:11:30 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		There is intel about where stuff is but until you figure out how to plug your computer into your brain, it's going to be rather tough to figure out YOUR intentions

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Post #: 2
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/28/2004 1:57:14 AM   
cbclimber


Posts: 24
Joined: 9/8/2002
From: Missouri
Status: offline 		Obviously your missing the point...as well as your best hockey players.

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RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/28/2004 3:57:05 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		Something like this?




Attachment (1)

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Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


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Post #: 4
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/28/2004 3:59:42 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		the text




Attachment (1)

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Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


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Post #: 5
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/28/2004 4:34:05 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cbclimber

Obviously your missing the point...as well as your best hockey players.


Them's fighting words!

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Post #: 6
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/28/2004 4:52:02 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		cbclimber,

Have a read of the thread listed below and it should answer some og your questions.






http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/

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Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Post #: 7
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/28/2004 6:00:45 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Hey there Raver...To which thread were you trying to steer us? All we got was the general forum list.

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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 8
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/28/2004 7:44:54 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		The title of the thread is "Ultra/Magic intelligence & IJ radar questions" just cut and paste this into the forum search engine at the bottom right hand of your screen.

< Message edited by Raverdave -- 3/28/2004 4:43:34 PM >

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RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/28/2004 3:10:58 PM   
sven6345789

 

Posts: 1050
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Sandviken, Sweden
Status: offline 		So you get three levels of intelligence
1. Radio transmissions
2. number of men/planes/ships
3. exact name of unit/ compositon of taskforce/ type of Taskforce/ squadron name
Allies probably increase reaching thei r first hight at the time of midway, going back down later until being on the rise again having broken the code around the middle of 1943.
Japanese probably stay low most of the time.

correct?

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Bougainville, November 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. It rained today.

Letter from a U.S. Marine,November 1943

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Post #: 10
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/28/2004 6:34:53 PM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		"3. exact name of unit/ compositon of taskforce/ type of Taskforce/ squadron name
Allies probably increase reaching thei r first hight at the time of midway, going back down later until being on the rise again having broken the code around the middle of 1943.
Japanese probably stay low most of the time. "

For the Allied side that statement is grosely oversimplified, the Japanese used several different codes in each service, and for example the Allies Never actualy read any of the main Japanese Army code unitl about mid 44, and then after that it was spotty at times after that with mounts whear they couldent read it all after that. Their are more details of this posted in the thread Raverdave has pointed out above. IMO the Game is giving the allies to much info, howeaver making use of this info will be hard for I suspect most players.

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Post #: 11
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/28/2004 8:37:30 PM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		There is a lot of garbage information but one of the pearls goes something like this "The XXX Division is planning an attack on YYYY."

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Post #: 12
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/29/2004 6:28:13 PM   
Damien Thorn

 

Posts: 1107
Joined: 7/24/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

the text





"Tokyo Bay Fortress is located at Tokyo." Now that's informative.

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Post #: 13
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/29/2004 6:40:56 PM   
Rendova


Posts: 405
Joined: 2/28/2004
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		I like the intercepts that say "Radio transmissions detected at San Fransico" Probably radio station 750 AM broadcasting the lastest Glenn Miller hit!

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Post #: 14
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/30/2004 2:19:23 AM   
byron13


Posts: 1589
Joined: 7/27/2001
Status: offline 		Do the "radio transmissions detected at hex xx, yy" tend to be land hexes, sea hexes, or both? If it detects fleets in sea hexes, that would be a nice bit of information! And, if fleets are included, do they generally refer to merchant fleets, or do they also catch combat fleets (that really should be observing radio silence)?

What intel DO the Japanese get?

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Post #: 15
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/30/2004 2:38:44 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		Sometimes it can be very detailed, and at other times (mostly) it is somewhat vague. The intell that the allies get is good, but you are still going to have to work out what you you are seeing is in fact what is there. Intell is not a magic crystal ball....with a bit of work it can be very help full, but it is something that you really have to use in conjuntion with "other" intel such as the tried and true MkI eye ball from your search aircraft.

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Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Post #: 16
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/30/2004 2:45:30 AM   
byron13


Posts: 1589
Joined: 7/27/2001
Status: offline 		Thanks. But is there a chance that a combat fleet's radio transmissions are triangulated? That could be extremely valuable intel if radio transmissions are heard from a part of the sea that only an invasion/combat fleet would be in. Nice early tipoff for invasions of places like Johnston, Tarawa, Aleutians, etc.

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Post #: 17
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/30/2004 9:38:40 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		If indeed the transmissions are triangulated you will never know. The Intel that you get does not drill down that deep nor does it tell you how the intel was gathered. It simply states "radio tranmissions detected at hex XXXX", "IJA X division is planning an attack on Singapore" or "A TF has been detected at hex XXX" It is then upto you to try and sort the wheat from the chaff. Is that TF at hex XXX a battle fleet or is it simply a couple of AKs on a milk run?

At the end of the day it will be up to you to decide how good (or bad) the intel is that you are getting from day to day. To tell you the truth I have not really "mapped" all the intel reports that I have received to see if it gives a good over all picture of what is happening as I have been far too busy hunting down bugs and play testing. But what i have noted is that you get a lot of info that could be helpful if you charted it over the long haul. For example, you might get an intel report stating that IJA division X is located in Manila, then if a few months later you get an intel report stating that the same division is now
located at Rabal or even Buna, then it is a safe bet that the IJN player is looking to launch some type of offensive in the PNG area.

Note....the intel reports that both players get ARE NOT the card players version of looking over your opponents shoulder, mostly it is very mundane and seemingly boring stuff but for the odd diamond that appears now and again....it is YOUR job as over all CinC to look for those diamonds and THEN be able to exploit then !

Above all remember that whatever the intel report says, it is not written in stone. ( Sideline....I wonder if the IJN player could spoof the Allied intel by sending a small CV TF to an area as a feint? ). At the end of the day you will have to plan your tactics and strategies based on a number of different things of which intel is only one of them.

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Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Post #: 18
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/30/2004 5:08:52 PM   
Ol_Dog


Posts: 317
Joined: 2/23/2003
From: Southern Illinois
Status: offline 		No fleets are entirely silent. Even the Pearl Harbor attack fleet, supposedly silent, was traced East across the Pacific until it turned South on 3 Dec 1941. That is all done by triangultion. IIRC the U S had 6 major listening posts in the Pacific in WWII.

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Common Sense is an uncommon virtue.
If you think you have everything under control, you don't fully understand the situation.

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Post #: 19
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/30/2004 6:51:08 PM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		Kido Butai wasn't tracked across the Pacific at all, IIRC. KB was believed to be in "Home Waters" the entire time - US Intel lost track of the IJN CVs sometime in late November and weren't aware of their location again until the morning of the 7th when the first attack wave struck. I can get some sources to back that up sometime later today if anyone wants me too...

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RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/31/2004 5:54:56 PM   
Ol_Dog


Posts: 317
Joined: 2/23/2003
From: Southern Illinois
Status: offline 		Day of Deceit by Robert B Stinnett lists 129 Japanese naval intercepts from 16 Nov to 4 Dec 1941 to the carriers.

The liner Lurline and 5 US intellienge stations report RDF for 30 Nov, 1 Dec and 2 Dec in North Pacific.

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Common Sense is an uncommon virtue.
If you think you have everything under control, you don't fully understand the situation.

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Post #: 21
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/31/2004 8:04:55 PM   
Ol_Dog


Posts: 317
Joined: 2/23/2003
From: Southern Illinois
Status: offline 		I had about a page of quotes from the book, but when I tried to post, the forum said I couldn't because of http refer or something.

The last RDF was 3 Dec, 900 miles North of Hawaii

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Common Sense is an uncommon virtue.
If you think you have everything under control, you don't fully understand the situation.

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Post #: 22
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/31/2004 8:10:23 PM   
byron13


Posts: 1589
Joined: 7/27/2001
Status: offline 		Gee, in retrospect, that almost seems significant, doesn't it?

What's the rest of the story? Who decided that it was really a U.S. fishing fleet on a routine outing from the West Coast to Honolulu and not worth reporting to anyone?

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Post #: 23
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/31/2004 9:47:26 PM   
Ol_Dog


Posts: 317
Joined: 2/23/2003
From: Southern Illinois
Status: offline 		One example - SS Lurine, left San Francisco, 29 Nov, picked up passengers in Los Angeles, then sailed for Hawaii. Leslie Grogan, radio operator of SS Lurline on midnight to morning watch, noted broadcasts from shore stations in Japan. These were being repeated by ships in the North Pacific. By US Naval orders, there were to be no ships in the Vacant Seas area.

These broadcasts continued through the night of 2 Dec. When the Lurline docked at Pearl on 3 Dec, Grogan took the transcripts and the RDF bearing to Lt Cmdr George Pease of Naval Intelligence. When Lurine arrived back at San Francisco on 10 Dec, it was met by Lt Cmdr Preston Allen who boarded the ship and confiscated the radio log.

In 1970, the Navy said they had no record of the log. But in 1958 the National Archives inventoried the radio log. In 1991, the National Archives said a withdrawl slip, appently from 1970 was in the file - but not signature of whoever removed the material.

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Common Sense is an uncommon virtue.
If you think you have everything under control, you don't fully understand the situation.

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Post #: 24
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 3/31/2004 9:57:28 PM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		Ol Dog -
I'd never heard that story. The books I have never mentioned it. Although they were written by people in Naval Intelligence at the time, so if your story is true, they may have been biased.
How good is "Day of Deceit"? Do you recommend it?

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"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

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Post #: 25
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 4/1/2004 12:15:33 AM   
Ol_Dog


Posts: 317
Joined: 2/23/2003
From: Southern Illinois
Status: offline 		The subtitle is The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor.

I believe it give a fair and balanced account of the intelligence effort involving Pearl Harbor. It points out the inconsistencys in testimony and actions by many people. It is easy to understand that everyone knew there was going to be a war and it was near. It makes Kimmel and Short look a lot better. It also points out the things that were not disclosed or not unclassified in hearings in 1945 -1976 - 1995.

I bought the book. It is worth reading - borrow it at the library. You can make up your own mind as to who knew what and when.

_____________________________

Common Sense is an uncommon virtue.
If you think you have everything under control, you don't fully understand the situation.

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 26
RE: C@d$ Bre@k$rs - 4/1/2004 1:25:28 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		From his choice of words and the 'tone' of some sentences, I got the feeling that Stinnett is not particulary fond of Roosevelt, so there might be a bias/agenda involved in his work. But that's a general problem of doing history. I also remember some assertions which were not backed by sources and some conclusions which were not too cogent. Maybe it's only my own bias that I'm somewhat suspicious of revisionist writings, or the translation is just bad. I'll try to get the english version through my library. After all, history is a matter of perception.

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