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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units?

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Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/27/2004 3:38:26 AM

Brady

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I read recently on this Board that their are to be no Pourpose built Japanese Kamakise Types, and Units, in the Game, if this is corect Why is this?

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/27/2004 7:19:16 AM

pad152

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quote:

Kamakise

"Kamikaze" missions, the player has control over which air groups will preform this type of mission. There would be a lot of kicking & screaming on this forum if the player didn't have control of what missions could be flown by newly arrived airgroups.

< Message edited by pad152 -- 3/27/2004 7:57:27 AM >

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/27/2004 8:38:41 AM

Brady

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Ya I understand that, but their were Lots of Kamakisie units formed for this express use, with planes expresely built for this mishion, like the Ki 115, and many other convershions, these types had large bombloads, larger than most of the lash up's, and represented a signafagant amount of production.

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/27/2004 10:09:01 AM

pad152

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You have control over production (Japanese player), you have control over the mission types (including Kamikaze) used by the air groups. I'm not sure I see the problem here. Look either the player or the computer is in control of airgroups and the missions they preform. Do you really want the computer be in control of all air groups and limit the type of missions they perform?

< Message edited by pad152 -- 3/27/2004 8:15:46 AM >

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/27/2004 6:29:14 PM

Brady

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You only have a limited abality to effect what units get what planes, upgrade paths are set in stone, and producing more of a certain type of plane does not mean more units will convert to it. Also As I understand it Their are No pourpos built Kamakise planes in the Game, like the Ki-115 as an example, it is not in the OOB, or this is what I have been lead to beleave. What I want to know is why.

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Ki-115 - 3/27/2004 6:42:10 PM

mogami

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Hi Brady only 105 of these flying dumpsters were produced. It would be madness to build them on purpose in WITP. They would only be of use defending the Home Islands because the groups cannot air transfer and it's doubtfull you could ship any to another base.

The Ki-115 was a purpose-built, cheapie kamikaze aircraft. Designed to do no more than take its pilot and bomb to the target, it was built of non-strategic materials (wood) and had minimal instrumentation. The landing gear was unsprung and designed to fall away after take-off. The pilot and his bomb were then to proceed to the target. Normally those kamikaze pilots who flew standard aircraft were able to return if the target was not found or the weather was poor. How the Ki-115 pilots were supposed to land if conditions for bombing were unfavorable is not totally understood

This gizmo is not going to impact the war.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 3/27/2004 11:40:15 AM >

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/27/2004 7:07:48 PM

tsimmonds

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quote:

What I want to know is why.

No matter how much detail there will finally be in WitP, they will never be able to fit in every piece of hardware that conceivably might have been used by one or another of the Pacific War combatants. It is clear from other threads that one of the major constraints is the number of slots available for different types of aircraft. One person may see this as regrettable, since it means that not every aircraft that might have flown between 1941 and 1946 will be available; another person may see this as a blessing, since it means that he will not be faced with an overwhelming number of choices. But regardless of whether one sees it as a good thing or a bad one, it seems clear that this limitation is not going to disappear, that for good or ill the game engine incorporates into its design the use of a database that limits the available choices in the way described. Choose your causes with care; I'm afraid most of them are lost before you start.

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RE: Ki-115 - 3/27/2004 8:25:56 PM

sven6345789

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They were not supposed to come back. If you flew on a kamikaze- mission, and survived, you were disgraced.
And we were allied with those guys...

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RE: Ki-115 - 3/27/2004 8:53:15 PM

siRkid

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Its not clear to me that everyone understands that your can convert some of you air groups into Kamikaze groups under the right conditions. Also, if Japan is invaded militia units will start to appear in large numbers.

< Message edited by Kid -- 3/27/2004 6:50:11 PM >

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RE: Ki-115 - 3/27/2004 8:53:46 PM

mogami

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Hi, Do you you do a transfer to a new base? These aircraft are only good for defending the Home Islands (rather unlikely anyone will ever invade Japan it's self)

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RE: Ki-115 - 3/27/2004 10:38:41 PM

LargeSlowTarget

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sven6345789
They were not supposed to come back. If you flew on a kamikaze- mission, and survived, you were disgraced.
And we were allied with those guys...

This last remark sounds rather pejorative, no? Bear in mind that many Kamikaze pilots didn't volunteer but were ordered to fly one-way missions. It's only human that not everybody was ready for this. The Nazi leaders were impressed by the fight-to-the-death tenacity of the Japanese and wished the German soldiers would show the same quality. For example, Nazi Germany not only imported resources from Japan, but also a theater piece called 'The tale of the 47 Ronin', a story about loyalty to the death, in order to 'inspire' the Germans.

What comes to my mind in this context - someone here familiar the 'Adolf' comics by Walter Moers? "The Japs *grrr*, the Japs - because of a mere atomic bomb or two they throw the towel!" ["De Japse *grrr*, de Japse - wegen ein, zwei l�ppischen Atombomben schmei�en se das Handtuch!"] The comics are hilarious ('May we make jokes about the Nazis? No - we must!'), don't know whether they have been translated.

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/27/2004 10:51:18 PM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

I read recently on this Board that their are to be no Pourpose built Japanese Kamakise Types, and Units, in the Game, if this is corect Why is this?

Porpoises didn't have any factories.

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/28/2004 6:30:00 AM

Brady

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I understand theier were only a hundred or so of them made, but their production was stoped because the war ended, and could of gone on... But I see your point.

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/28/2004 6:33:04 AM

pasternakski

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Does anyone else love this post as much as I do? Brady, my man, you are priceless. As Sherlock Holmes said about Watson, "I never get your depths."

< Message edited by pasternakski -- 3/27/2004 11:31:43 PM >

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/28/2004 7:57:24 AM

Raverdave

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I always read Brady's posts, it is required reading since Gary Larson retired.

Brady my man...you just keep posting!

#1 ticket holder of the Brady fanboy club.

< Message edited by Raverdave -- 3/28/2004 4:55:54 PM >

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/28/2004 12:48:08 PM

DoomedMantis

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ah but does he do it purpose?

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/28/2004 2:10:30 PM

jnier

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Maybe this has been brought up before, but is the Ohka Bomb (Yokosuka MXY-7) in the game? That was a "purpose built" Kamikaze and hundreds were built. They actually saw action in the Okinawa campaign and did some damage. I cannot see it in any other role besides Kamikaze due to its range.

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/28/2004 2:42:15 PM

tanjman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jnier

Maybe this has been brought up before, but is the Ohka Bomb (Yokosuka MXY-7) in the game? That was a "purpose built" Kamikaze and hundreds were built. They actually saw action in the Okinawa campaign and did some damage. I cannot see it in any other role besides Kamikaze due to its range.

Yes it is, as a weapon not an aircraft type. This is from the WitP Editor post:

The ohka bomb needs to be in slot 197

How you tell your Betty and Francis groups to carry it I don't know.

Testers can you answer this?

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/28/2004 2:58:49 PM

sven6345789

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guess it will work the same like in pacwar.
If you have a Betty-group on a specific date, the group will probably will have an additional mission available like "Okha-attack" or the like. This would be like giving the naval attack order, only with an Okha instead of a Torpedo.

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/28/2004 3:52:19 PM

Drongo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sven6345789
guess it will work the same like in pacwar.
If you have a Betty-group on a specific date, the group will probably will have an additional mission available like "Okha-attack" or the like. This would be like giving the naval attack order, only with an Okha instead of a Torpedo.

I haven't seen a full test yet of the Ohka in the game but I'm fairly sure that it is carried only by the aircraft type G4M2e.

When set to Naval Strike, those units equipped with that model of the Betty will use the Ohka instead of a torp (I assume for normal range Naval Strike only).

The G4M2e becomes available for production Oct '44 (possibly earlier if R&D'd). The first unit already equipped with it arrives in Nov '44.

There may also be some availablilty restrictions on the Okha weapon itself but I don't know the details.

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/28/2004 6:10:34 PM

Brady

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I was reading in a Book I hvae on the Betty, that many of the Okaha atacks were conducted at night, and that the Bettys were equiped with surface search radar, is this represented in WiTP...can we actualy see some more night atacks, unlike UV whear they are all but impossable to triger for the Japanese?

Also does WiTP alow for the P1Y units to upgrade to being able to use these, if iI remember corectly a P1Y unit was working up to use the Baka's when the war ended.

Also does WiTP alow for an upgrade path for the Okha's, to the later models if the war goes long...this would include shore launced varients...

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/29/2004 6:23:25 PM

Damien Thorn

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I wonder what kind of rules will be in effect for the Oka-G4m2 combo. I'm sure the G4Ms won't have to face flak, as they launched from well out of range.
Will the Oka face flak? Do current flak rules account for airplane speed? They probably should. It is easier to shoot down a slower plane than a faster one.
Will CAP be able to attack Okas? Probably, but I'd imagine they would only get one "round" of Air-to-Air combat since no other plane could catch the rocket after if went by.

I'd also like to know if there are any special rules for Kamikazes. How much extra damage does the kamikaze do when it hits? I guess it will probably be based on toughness of the plance, since that seems to be an indicator of size and mass.

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/30/2004 6:19:41 AM

Brady

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The Okaha should be all but imune from interception, and almost imune to ack as well, though their is the off chance that it could be hit by Flack, High spead and very slow spead made ACK have a dificult time tracking a target, also the Ohaka is extreamly small, though to track and hit.

Kamakisies are realy just a deleavery means the real damage is caused bu the bomb(s) they carry, most Kamakisies carried very Lagre bombload's, I read recently that a Ki-67 convershion to kamakisie could pack about 3 tons of explosives!

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/30/2004 6:24:45 AM

BB57

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Did the Ohka have a short range? I believe the Bettys carrying them were shot down in droves.

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/30/2004 7:01:42 AM

Brady

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The first Ohka's the Model 11, had to be launched about 20 miles from the target, the Bettys carrying them on some of the Mishions were intercepted before launch and shot down, Howeaver Several suxcessfull Baka mishios were flow and they did sink ships and damage others, Also many Baka mishions were flow at night.

Powerplant:
(Model 11 and 21) Three Type 4 Model 1 Mark 20 solid-fuel rockets with a total thrust of 1,764 lbs.

(Model 22) One 551-lb.-thrust Tsu-11 turbojet, with a Hitachi 100-hp four-cylinder inline auxiliary engine as a gas generator.

(Models 33, 43A, 43B, and 53) One 1,047-lb.-thrust Ne-20 axial-flow turbojet.

(Model 43 K-1 Kai) One 573-lb.-thrust Type 4 Model 1 Mark 20 solid-fuel rocket.

Armament:
Warhead in the nose, as follows -

Ohka 11: 2,646 lb.;
Ohka 22: 1,323 lb.;
Ohka 33 and Ohka 43: 1,764 lb.

Dimensions, weights, and performance:
(Ohka Model 11)
Wingspan, 16 ft. 9 9/16 in.;
length, 19 ft. 10 13/16 in.;
height, 3 ft. 9 21/32 in.;
wing area, 64.583 sq. ft.;
empty weight, 970 lb.;
loaded weight, 4,178 lb.;
wing loading, 73.1 lb./sq. ft.;
power loading, N/A;
maximum powered speed, 403 mph at 11,485 ft.;
terminal dive velocity, 576 mph.;
range, 23 statute miles.

(Ohka Model 22; all performance figures estimated)
Wingspan, 13 ft. 6 7/32 in.;
length, 22 ft. 6 7/8 in.;
height, 3 ft. 9 9/32 in.;
wing area, 43.055 sq. ft.;
empty weight, 1,202 lb.;
loaded weight, 3,197 lb.;
wing loading, 74.3 lb./sq. ft.;
power loading, N/A;
maximum powered speed, 276 mph at 13,125 ft.;
terminal dive velocity, N/A;
range, 81 statute miles.

(Ohka Model 43B; all performance figures estimated)
Wingspan, 29 ft. 6 11/32 in.;
length, 26 ft. 9 � in.;
height, 3 ft. 9 9/32 in.;
wing area, 139.930 sq. ft.;
empty weight, 2,535 lb.;
loaded weight, 5,004 lb.;
wing loading, 35.8 lb./sq. ft.;
power loading, N/A;
maximum powered speed, 345 mph at 13,125 ft.;
terminal dive velocity, N/A;
range, 173 statute miles.

Does WiTP alow for the upgraded types to become available?

See this sight for a good read coving this weapon:

http://www.wwiitech.net/main/japan/aircraft/mxy7/

< Message edited by Brady -- 3/30/2004 5:02:02 AM >

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/30/2004 7:05:57 AM

Rendova

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Seems to me they should be able to be shot down to a degree, A VT fused shell would get near and

Of course I would imagine they would be harder to hit then a val

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/30/2004 7:19:22 AM

jeffs

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LargeSlowTarget brings up an excellent point
Kamikaze pilots didn't volunteer but were ordered to fly one-way missions.

I had a Japanese language professor about a decade ago. A very nice, quiet elderly man. One of the other teachers mentioned that older teacher was very quiet probably because he had been one of the Kamikaze trainees (fortunately, the war ended before his mission was scheduled). The older teacher was a graduate student of German culture and at his university, any student whose was doing foreign studies (language, culture) was ordered into the Kamikaze unit. So for the leaders of Japan, it served an additional purpose of ridding Japan of any foreign taint (any yes, ironic comments can made that he was a student of German, their allies)..

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/30/2004 7:52:32 AM

Brady

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I beleave that 576 mph is like Mach .7(aprox.) So fast that I doubt that they would be able to track it and compenstae enough to be able to hit it in time before it hit the target...They are extreamly small targets to boot. This is why they were so feared, nothing could realy efectively stop them.

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/30/2004 2:49:19 PM

tsimmonds

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

I beleave that 576 mph is like Mach .7(aprox.) So fast that I doubt that they would be able to track it and compenstae enough to be able to hit it in time before it hit the target...They are extreamly small targets to boot. This is why they were so feared, nothing could realy efectively stop them.

Feared? Perhaps. Fearsome? Maybe not. It is interesting to consider the fact that so few ships were actually damaged by them. I think they did actually sink a DD or so? No hits on CVs though, IIRC. BBs, CAs, CLs, possibly a hit or two here, Brady I'm sure you can tell us.... One must always temper one's discussion of the theoretical capabilities of particular weapons systems with an examination of actual performance. These were truly spectacular weapons; at the same time they seem to have been particularly ineffective.....what would account for this discrepancy?

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RE: Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units? - 3/30/2004 3:48:00 PM

jnier

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

I beleave that 576 mph is like Mach .7(aprox.) So fast that I doubt that they would be able to track it and compenstae enough to be able to hit it in time before it hit the target...They are extreamly small targets to boot. This is why they were so feared, nothing could realy efectively stop them.

Feared? Perhaps. Fearsome? Maybe not. It is interesting to consider the fact that so few ships were actually damaged by them. I think they did actually sink a DD or so? No hits on CVs though, IIRC. BBs, CAs, CLs, possibly a hit or two here, Brady I'm sure you can tell us.... One must always temper one's discussion of the theoretical capabilities of particular weapons systems with an examination of actual performance. These were truly spectacular weapons; at the same time they seem to have been particularly ineffective.....what would account for this discrepancy?

The early models were ineffecitve because of their range (23 miles) - as a previous poster mentioned, the mother Betty was usually shot down before they could launch the Okha. I have no idea how many Okha's were shot down after launch - I would guess not that many.

As has been pointed out, the later model greatly increased their range (173 miles), so if a Japanese player could produce the later model in greater numbers (for example - if the game goes longer than August '45), then perhaps they could have done more damage.

The Ohka certainly wasn't a war winning weapon, but the later versions may have been more effective.

< Message edited by jnier -- 3/30/2004 1:46:51 PM >

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Why no Pourpos Built Kamakise Types? and Units?

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