Apollo11
Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
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Hi all,
quote:
ORIGINAL: mdiehl
I understand what your claim is. I do NOT agree that it is all that easy to destroy, even when in the open. That's why I have suggested that you consider the Japanese bombardments at Guadalcanal. You have essentially idenitical circumstances, yet in no bombardment was the airfield shut down for more than an hour or so and in no circumstance were all the aircraft destroyed. As a result a/c that were on the airfield prior to the bombardment were still around attacking Japanese vessels immediately after the bombardment. While from a game standpoint it is unlikely that, say, 3 SBDs will ruin your day (in UV and in many paper stratsims), in the real world the real problem was that even 3 SBDs could ruin your day. You could lose a CV to one. THAT is why the IJN absolutely positively absolutely absolutely and without any doubt in any of the operational planners' minds (on the IJN side) GUARANTEE that Midway was not operational as an airbase. To DO that you MUST use aircraft.
The Guadalcanal was "proper" island while Midway is only small atoll.
Also the Guadalcanal was heavily forested island with airstrip inland (i.e. not on shore like it was in Midway - in Midway the airstrip is from one end of island to the other almost covering everything there).
I really really think that several BBs firing 1-2 hours at night would destroy or damage any object or piece of equipment or aircraft standing in open.
The Midway was packed with aircraft and, at sudden night bombardment, they would be unable to run away (in air) or to hide anywhere (no hardened aircraft shelters).
Big guns on battleships have powerful HE shells that carry a lot of punch and splinters flying all over the place would surely riddle anything on surface...
quote:
I'll bite. Name one instance in WW2 where a naval bombardment stopped air activity at a modest-sized airbase for any decisive interval of time. You say it is 100% achievable and I say it's almost 100% guaranteed not to work. I say look to Cactus for some prime examples.
Please read above.
BTW, I think that naval bombardment was never before used to suppress airfields before Japanese did that in Guadalcanal.
I also think I remember reading that there were several instances where there were no aircraft available at all after night Japanese bombardment at Guadalcanal...
quote:
If you are asserting that the USN way of doing things in 1944-1945 was to shut down airbases via naval bombardment then I am asserting that you do not know how the USN shut down enemy airbases. Suppressing Japanese airbases was the mandate of fast carriers, not bombardment TFs. The Japanese also used CVs for that task. Both parties at the time understood that the only sure way to shut down an airbase was with airstrikes.
Under that I only thought of having huge "armada" consisting of several specialized TFs rather closely together (and operating in unison).
quote:
IMO the USN was better at it (but by 1944 they'd had alot more time to get good at it than, say, in 1942). In many of the high speed naval and air actions involving Japanese ships oeprating in close proximity there were collisions. Mikuma vs. Mogami. At least one collision in the sequence of battles around the Leyte gulf. One major collision IIRC in the night actions in October near Guadalcanal. Another major collision in the action in Surigao Strait.
Surigao straight was very narrow place (and there were torpedoes involved I think).
The Straight (in Guadalcanal) is also rather narrow place.
Around Midway there is only open water...
quote:
I can't imagine why you'd be that cocky. The SBDs based on Midway got in their licks against the IJN TF, but they missed. One USN PBY at Midway torpedoed a Japanese auxiliary. If the Japanese TF is not using its a/c to suppress Midway, then the position and composition of the Japanese TF will be known to the USN throughout the battle. Under such circumstances you can almost guarantee that a USN coordinated strike will find you before you find the USN.
Approaching Japanese "armada" consisting of several TFs would be too far away for any other attack except high altitude level bomber attacks.
Now... it would be interesting to know how long the night lasted there at that time (summer of 1942).
My imaginary plan called for night bombardment of Midway which means that bombardment TF would peel off the main "armada" with nightfall for high speed dash towards Midway.
If those were 29-30 knot ships it means that in 8 hours (if we presume that night is 8-9-10 hours long) they can cover minimum of 240 nm.
That also applies that main body (i.e. whole Japanese "armada") would be at least 240 nm away from Midway by nightfall.
Is that close enough for Midway based torpedo and dive bombers to attack using last light or, as I initially wrote, only high altitude bombers can be used?
quote:
Your plan seems to rely wholly on improbable results. Even the real Japanese were not so blinkered as to pretend that they could either ignore Midway or get close enough to bombard it without dedicating a substantial amount of CV based air power to the job, and even the real Japanese knew that but a few enemy strike craft could pose a very mortal threat.
Like I wrote before - Midway battle was fought and Japan lost. That's history.
What we do here is just academic discussion regarding "what if" possibilities and with hope that, when WitP arrives, we can test this in it!
Leo "Apollo11"
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