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Cherry Blossom Festival - 3/31/2004 6:24:13 PM   
tsimmonds


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From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		This morning while standing in line in the terminal at Baltimore Washington International, I noticed that there were dozens of posters, charming in the way that only posters made by area elementary school pupils can be, promoting the upcoming Cherry Blossom Festival in DC. This year's theme is "Celebrating 150 Years of Peace and Friendship between America and Japan". At first I was amused, then it occurred to me that it was possible that the kids who made those posters had never even heard of WWII....strange.

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 3/31/2004 6:29:03 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		The truely sad part is, that in this era of PC thinking, you may very well be right.

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 3/31/2004 6:45:35 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Well Matt visted Japan in 1853. 151 years ago so I guess we now consider WWII a mere incident and not worth holding a grudge over.
But I suspect it is just because you don't teach WW2 to 1st and 2nd graders. (We can bust their bubble when they get to be teenagers)

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 3/31/2004 6:52:56 PM   
sven6345789

 

Posts: 1050
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Sandviken, Sweden
Status: offline 		Since you have a Homer, there was one Simpson Episode (I believe the one with camp crusty) where the summer starts, the children run out of school, and the teacher appears in the door, saying
Teacher:"Wait, you haven't heard yet how WW2 ended!!!!"
a moment of silence
Teacher:"WE WON!!!"
Children:(rioting on the street):"USA,USA,USA....


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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 3/31/2004 7:58:46 PM   
ruger1997

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 3/30/2004
Status: offline 		Revisionist history occuring again.

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 3/31/2004 8:22:39 PM   
Damien Thorn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Well Matt visted Japan in 1853. 151 years ago so I guess we now consider WWII a mere incident and not worth holding a grudge over.


In the overall history of Japan and the United States, 5 years is a very small period. We tend to over-emphisize those years because it makes for great gaming but the public at large couldn't really care less. If you go to Japan today the only remaining references to the war are the atomic bomb memorial parks. If you ask most American high-schoolers about WW2 you will be extremely lucky if they can even guess correctly what decade it took place in. Some of them can't even get the century right.

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 3/31/2004 8:51:51 PM   
tsimmonds


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From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
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quote:

...5 years is a very small period...

Five years (four actually) fighting the war, plus twenty years of both countries believing it was inevitable and preparing themselves to fight it.....

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/1/2004 12:49:20 AM   
rogueusmc


Posts: 4583
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From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
Status: offline 		"Those who don't know history is doomed to repeat it"...I bebieve that was Ben Franklin

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/1/2004 1:08:35 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn
If you ask most American high-schoolers about WW2 you will be extremely lucky if they can even guess correctly what decade it took place in. Some of them can't even get the century right.


I've read that many of those kids believe that America's enemies in WWII had been Germany, Japan, and Russia... Cold War propaganda worked!

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/1/2004 2:01:05 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

"Those who don't know history is doomed to repeat it"...I bebieve that was Ben Franklin



"Who ignores history is condemned to relive it" - Georges Santayana.

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And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/1/2004 2:01:15 AM   
tsimmonds


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From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

"Those who don't know history is doomed to repeat it"...I bebieve that was Ben Franklin

Actually it was George Santayana. Funny how just about anything that makes sense can sound like BF

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/1/2004 2:04:15 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn
If you ask most American high-schoolers about WW2 you will be extremely lucky if they can even guess correctly what decade it took place in. Some of them can't even get the century right.


Sh1t. There probably aren't seven American high school kids who could identify which decade they currently live in. Maybe three or four participants in these forums could...

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Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 12
RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/1/2004 4:30:15 AM   
Becket


Posts: 1269
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Status: offline 		Of course, if you live in the area you may have also heard the protests about the new Smithsonian Aviation museum (I'm forgetting the name), namely the display featuring the Enola Gay. The protesters believe that it is horrible, just horrible, that the museum has the Enola Gay on display, but doesn't have a presentation on the horrors of what America did when they dropped the Atom Bomb.

Not one of the protesters has mentioned including anything regarding Japanese atrocities in China (Nanking, vivisection of living Chinese without anesthetic to see the progress of chemical and biological weapons, and other horrors), nor anything regarding Japanese agression, nor anything regarding Japanese treatment of US P.O.W.s (where G.I.s faced a fatality rate several times higher than if captured by the Germans -- Bataan, etc.), nor the assessments that invasion of Japan would likely cost the lives of at least a million US soldiers, and several times that number of Japanese. And, since the Russians are now our best friends, no mention would be made of the need to stop a Soviet invasion of the Japanese islands.

In sum, if you live in this area, you will see that WWII in the Pacific is largely forgotten, except to the extent that the U.S. can be excoriated for something it did during the war. No one would dare suggest that a museum display of planes that carpet bombed German cities be accompanied by a presentation of the horrors doled out to the residents. If someone did say that, their voice would be quickly silenced by Holocaust survivors and their descendents (rightly so!). Not so for the Pacific War, where for whatever reason, there is so much less understanding of the nature of the human tragedy.

(BTW, I frankly would have no problem with adding a wall to the Enola Gay display that showed the horrors of the A-bomb...so long as that wall first put the entire event in context and educated visitors on the points I mention above, so that the viewer can make an educated decision regarding whether Truman made the right decision. Heck, to be complete you can even include the misgivings of Manhattan project scientists regarding the effect of the bomb if it was dropped. I also didn't mean to write anything nearly this long.)

< Message edited by Becket -- 4/1/2004 2:30:11 AM >

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/1/2004 6:20:53 AM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		Granted I left school some 15 years ago, I never once in Collage or Public school had any class that was required that even mentioned WW2. Prety sad huh.


Though in 6th Grade my Teacher was amased at my Interest in WW2, I always gave reports and oral speaches on the subject when ever we were suposed to do such things and neaded to pic the material ourselfs...She had her dad come and tell us about his time on Guadacanal..and Show us all a little souvinear he brought home in his duffel bag...a Freaking Japanese LMG! were all WIDE eyed that day:) She also schedualed a field trip to the Oregon Military Museum, and that day I held my first MP 40:)

< Message edited by Brady -- 4/1/2004 4:24:10 AM >

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/1/2004 6:37:07 AM   
Philwd

 

Posts: 285
Joined: 3/19/2002
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		My gym teacher in high school was a Marine combat engineer. His unit was scheduled to be in the first wave if we had invaded. Of course he thinks the bomb is the best invention ever.

I will teach my son about the war. My wife hates my military collection but my collection of books will be out for him to read. And he will be highly encouraged. I have sworn he will not be one of the ignorant masses. He can right now at 5 yrs old pick Guadalcanal off the globe. Where as he put it ; the "bad enemy planes were".

Quark

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/1/2004 11:19:17 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		My 8 and 9 year old nephews know a lot more about WW2 then their friends. Of course I have them playing SPWAW and they watched me test UV and WITP. They too refer to all Axis countries as "The bad guys"

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/1/2004 2:23:35 PM   
tsimmonds


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From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

My 8 and 9 year old nephews know a lot more about WW2 then their friends. Of course I have them playing SPWAW and they watched me test UV and WITP. They too refer to all Axis countries as "The bad guys"

THe Axis of Bad Guys.....those were the good ol'days, eh?

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/1/2004 4:53:49 PM   
CMDRMCTOAST


Posts: 673
Joined: 5/3/2003
From: Mount Vernon wa..
Status: offline 		My seven year old when I asked him how I can take back lunga recomends that
I should use the ION cannon from his command and conquer game to nuetralize the jap
threat.
We are spawning the future of wargamers as we speak...
He can't wait to learn Gary Grigsby's new World War Game...

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/1/2004 5:04:22 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I was born in 1954, just nine years after the war ended and the Korean conflict was just over. Yet, as a child this was all acient history to me as it should have been. Try asking a 19 year old about the Vietnam war (something that was so important to my generation), and you will usually draw a blank or at best a slew of myth and misinformation. My nephew is showing an interest in WWII history through the games I play. Right now he does not really know or care too much about it, he just likes the games. I think I prefer it that way. There will be time for him to learn later.

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/1/2004 5:12:33 PM   
CMDRMCTOAST


Posts: 673
Joined: 5/3/2003
From: Mount Vernon wa..
Status: offline 		I don't shelter him from the facts he has been playing wargames since he
was a little over two and had his first computor at three, he now reads lots of books from the school library that covers the subjects.
Might be his future calling and I am OK with that...

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The essence of military genius is to bring under
consideration all of the tendencies of the mind
and soul in combination towards the business of
war..... Karl von Clausewitz

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/1/2004 6:34:31 PM   
Damien Thorn

 

Posts: 1107
Joined: 7/24/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

Granted I left school some 15 years ago, I never once in Collage or Public school had any class that was required that even mentioned WW2. Prety sad huh.


In Florida, about 10 years ago, a Jewish group got a law passed that required high schools to teach about the concentration camps. I'm not sure if it has to be in a history class or if it can be in English class (by assigning a book on the subject to be read). I was already out of school by then so I don't know the details. I just know this from my teacher friends. It is the only part of WW2 that ever gets mentioned in the classroom.

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Post #: 21
RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/1/2004 7:37:17 PM   
rogueusmc


Posts: 4583
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
Status: offline 		I did my junior term theme on Iwo Jima and my senior theme on fighter warfare in the pacific. Very different subjects from my classmates.

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/1/2004 11:48:24 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		A couple of years ago we had a history professor at IUPUI in Indianapolis trying to teach an alternative history. One that professed that the holocaust was western propaganda and never happened. Needless to say he got his @ss fired and run out of the state.

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/2/2004 6:54:36 AM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		Doh...Man It has been a while, we did get a ton of Holacast stuff in school, I almsot compleatly forgot about that, so I was abit wrong but that was the only WW2 stuff we got, almost every year of school from 6th grade up we had some of that, once a year.

< Message edited by Brady -- 4/2/2004 5:04:14 AM >

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I think it's sad that this very same thing happens all ... - 4/2/2004 11:41:32 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

"Who ignores history is condemned to relive it" - Georges Santayana.


I think it's sad that this very same thing happens all over the world...


WWI is "ancient history" nobody remembers, WWII is almost forgotten and even recent wars (like Korea and Vietnam) are forgotten.

I really have no idea why is that but it seems that young generations nowadays have almost 0 interest regarding history and that only people with love for wargmaes (i.e. Grognards like us) and/or history buffs have desire to know.


BTW, when I was small kid I vividly remember my old grandfather telling me stories of fighting in WWI on Eastern front (my country was then part of Austro-Hungarian Empire).

I was sitting in his lap, he was showing me his wound scars and telling me stories of country far far away (he was captured in 1915 and repatriated home in 1922 - since he was forest engineer he was not in PoW camp and instead he was foreman on some large Russian estate somewhere in the east)...



Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: I think it's sad that this very same thing happens ... - 4/2/2004 11:53:59 AM   
Subchaser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

"Who ignores history is condemned to relive it" - Georges Santayana.


I think it's sad that this very same thing happens all over the world...



History teach us only one simple thing – history teach us nothing. Sometimes you can foresee news on this or that modern event while reading some book on history, it's only hard to get a big picture which is best to veiw ''from a distance'' I mean it takes some time to make analogy clear

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RE: Cherry Blossom Festival - 4/2/2004 2:40:44 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		IUPUI, huh? Is this my punk@ss USN opponent? Halsey, eh? You never were the shy type.....

Nice airstrikes, BTW.

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 4/2/2004 7:43:45 AM >

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RE: I think it's sad that this very same thing happens ... - 4/3/2004 9:50:12 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Subchaser

History teach us only one simple thing – history teach us nothing. Sometimes you can foresee news on this or that modern event while reading some book on history, it's only hard to get a big picture which is best to veiw ''from a distance'' I mean it takes some time to make analogy clear


Nah... after careful consideration of what you wrote I still believe in this... "Who ignores history is condemned to relive it"


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 28
RE: I think it's sad that this very same thing happens ... - 4/3/2004 10:19:39 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Subchaser
History teach us only one simple thing – history teach us nothing. Sometimes you can foresee news on this or that modern event while reading some book on history, it's only hard to get a big picture which is best to veiw ''from a distance'' I mean it takes some time to make analogy clear


You repeat here the attitude that makes Santayana's perception so accurate. As history recedes into the distant past and people forget the facts and circumstances that caused the world to move as history caused it to do, the same sad influences bring further misery because the lessons of history, not the history itself, have not been learned and retained.

Song of a Common Soldier

This is the song of a common soldier.
The war I fought in has long been over and done.
It was your side that won.
I fought under the sign of the Iron Cross.
The honor and glory with which my life was lost forgotten.
You held history's pen.

No, you won't find my soul down on its knees
Offering up any apologies, my friend.

In your world I see a million monuments to shame;
The lessons of history ignored like yesterday's rain.

Now that I see what you've let your world turn into
I can't think why anyone would ever fight for you again.

...

-Thomas Williams.

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Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 29
RE: I think it's sad that this very same thing happens ... - 4/4/2004 6:19:37 PM   
CynicAl


Posts: 327
Joined: 7/27/2001
From: Brave New World
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Subchaser
History teach us only one simple thing ? history teach us nothing. Sometimes you can foresee news on this or that modern event while reading some book on history, it's only hard to get a big picture which is best to veiw ''from a distance'' I mean it takes some time to make analogy clear


You repeat here the attitude that makes Santayana's perception so accurate. As history recedes into the distant past and people forget the facts and circumstances that caused the world to move as history caused it to do, the same sad influences bring further misery because the lessons of history, not the history itself, have not been learned and retained.

Amen to that. Circumstances change - technology advances, various "isms" come and go - but it's people who make things happen, who make decisions (or fail to do so) and act (or don't) based on their perceptions. And in thousands of years of recorded history, people haven't changed.

Study history, and understand it, and you'll be better equipped to understand the world you live in. Individual events will still surprise you, but the patterns are as predictable as sunrise.

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