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RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here...

 
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RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/3/2004 8:35:45 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		Why hasn't this thread been locked?

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to neuromancer)
Post #: 91
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/3/2004 8:42:03 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		NEUROMANCER The simple fact that you would waste this much time, effort, and
space engaging in a silly "flame war" proves to me that you are every bit as big an
IDIOT as anyone you chose to "take on". Post an intelligent rebuttal once..., and
if the person you are dissagreeing with doesn't "get it"; that's THEIR problem. The
majority of the participants in these forums are intelligent enough to make up their
own minds as to what side of a question they want to come down on.

(in reply to neuromancer)
Post #: 92
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/3/2004 9:42:07 AM   
neuromancer


Posts: 627
Joined: 5/30/2002
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I'm sorry Mikey, did you get all upset because I didn't respond to you flaming me the first time? Feeling lonely maybe. Okay, here goes. Its not much, but it should make you feel all important because someone bothered to respond to you.

You know, all I dd was make a simple statement about people not wanting to always have the historical outcome for PH, and your response was rather insulting about how I obviously didn't read what you said, and so forth and so on. I shrugged and went on.
Actually, I don't even think it got a shrug.


Hey wait a sec... didn't you just say that if someone doesn't 'get it' the first time, that is their problem? So why did...?

Hmm.... Oh well, 'do as I say, not as I do'. The usual.


I cannot remember why I posted the response I did, I might have misunderstood what you said - people do that all the time you know. Or maybe I wasn't specifically responding to what you said. I don't really know. It was such a small moment of my existance, I really don't remember.

Or care.


At any rate Mikey, in the flame category you are pretty much a non-entity, so I had no interest in responding tit for tat. Dippy back there was just being a doorknob, so I wanted to let him have it. Which I admit was pretty childish, but every now and then it is fun to smack twits like him upside the head.

Sorry, despite your attempts to light my fire though, this is all you're going to get. I might be able to recommend some forums if you are looking to get flamed though. With your attitude, you should be able to get someone flaming you in no time.


BTW: There was no interest in an 'intelligent rebutal' because there is nothing intelligent about this entire debate!

Have to agree though, why hasn't this absurdity been locked yet? Perhaps Matrix cannot be bothered - people want to rant, let them. Or maybe they just haven't noticed.

< Message edited by neuromancer -- 4/3/2004 2:54:36 AM >

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 93
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/3/2004 3:07:09 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

Posts: 2220
Joined: 8/2/2001
Status: offline 		I suggest we should put in the effect of burning oil and exploding parts... so the japanese planes should be hampered.. if they can´t see the ships, they can´t hit em Has somebody exact weather dates with wind-strenght and direction ? You really should program this, it is surely sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo easy....
or wait, the best thing would be that the japanese planes fly in, get shot down (because USS Nimitz came back in time) and every allied fan boy will be happy, because he saved the day, get the purple heart or something else to put on it´s brest and we all sing..."thank god we have Mdiehl...."

I want to play this game... anybody who wants things that delay it, should be shot... but maybe you could put in the Mdiehl-trigger (if you push him, any japanese ship will scuttle, any japanese soldier commit sucide and mdiehl has won

In earlier times i tried to talk to him, but it is useless. And i still wait for the day he get the data about the P80 in Spring 1945...

really, i want the USS-Nimitz come back in time-effect been programmed.
I bet, MDIEHL can manage this easily, beeing such an expert programmer

_____________________________

Don't tickle yourself with some moralist crap thinking we have some sort of obligation to help these people. We're there for our self-interest, and anything we do to be 'nice' should be considered a courtesy dweebespit

(in reply to neuromancer)
Post #: 94
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/3/2004 4:44:10 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		No.., one effort at correcting you is enough. It is apparent that we will now have to
deal with Brady (who thinks like an adult, but spells like an 8-year old) and YOU (who
spells like an adult, but acts like an 8-year old. You can't even remember what I
"set you straight" about..., and you don't care. Or perhaps you didn't bother to read
it. I'll fight through Brady's spelling, as there is often something worthwhile under-
neath. But you I will ignore... Why don't you go sit in the corner until you "grow up".

(in reply to neuromancer)
Post #: 95
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/3/2004 6:58:13 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Brady (who thinks like an adult, but spells like an 8-year old) and YOU (who
spells like an adult, but acts like an 8-year old.


Not that there's anything wrong with that...

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 96
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/3/2004 9:03:07 PM   
Ol_Dog


Posts: 317
Joined: 2/23/2003
From: Southern Illinois
Status: offline 		Or a 28 year old girl

_____________________________

Common Sense is an uncommon virtue.
If you think you have everything under control, you don't fully understand the situation.

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 97
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/3/2004 9:55:04 PM   
Rendova


Posts: 405
Joined: 2/28/2004
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Brady (who thinks like an adult, but spells like an 8-year old) and YOU (who
spells like an adult, but acts like an 8-year old.


Not that there's anything wrong with that...



We all have a little 8 year old in us

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 98
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/3/2004 10:01:29 PM   
CMDRMCTOAST


Posts: 673
Joined: 5/3/2003
From: Mount Vernon wa..
Status: offline 		[/quote]

We all have a little 8 year old in us

[/quote]

Or a spoiled hard headed, non budging, unforgiving, shallow minded, brat hidden deep down.
Like me

_____________________________

The essence of military genius is to bring under
consideration all of the tendencies of the mind
and soul in combination towards the business of
war..... Karl von Clausewitz

(in reply to Rendova)
Post #: 99
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/3/2004 10:06:46 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rendova
We all have a little 8 year old in us


Hey, now. I have never had a little eight-year-old in ME.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Rendova)
Post #: 100
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/3/2004 10:33:29 PM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		And I'm officially disgusted by this thread.... hehehe

_____________________________

"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 101
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/3/2004 11:05:47 PM   
Rendova


Posts: 405
Joined: 2/28/2004
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rendova
We all have a little 8 year old in us


Hey, now. I have never had a little eight-year-old in ME.


didn't mean it in a Micheal Jackson sort of way

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 102
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/3/2004 11:08:56 PM   
CMDRMCTOAST


Posts: 673
Joined: 5/3/2003
From: Mount Vernon wa..
Status: offline 		Gonna get us shut down by the FCC!!!!!! thanks alot.

_____________________________

The essence of military genius is to bring under
consideration all of the tendencies of the mind
and soul in combination towards the business of
war..... Karl von Clausewitz

(in reply to Rendova)
Post #: 103
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/4/2004 4:45:14 AM   
Luskan

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline 		Got to get my own little theory in on this thread before it gets shut down!

Are you an allied fanboy? Not sure if your sympathies for the allied cause are a bit too extreme? Take this easy test and decide!

The war in the Pacific went from roughly Dec 1941 to Sep 1945. So WITP should model a game on that conflict that is able to be played by 2 players for how long:

1. Dec 1941 to Sep 1945, allowing room for great allied players to finish the war in 44 and great jap players to stretch it out until 1946.

2. Dec 1941 to June 1942 - if the japs are able to mount any sort of resistance after june 1942 the game model just doesn't work.

3. Well actually, the war was over before it began, so technically any result the japs got at pearl harbour, or any other conflict were flukes and shouldn't be modelled.

Come on people! If Frag had posted a combat report from Pearl (like the reports that happen about half the time) where Kido Butai just doesn't do NEARLY as well as they did historically, would this thread be nearly as long?

Probably - because the allied fanboys STILL wouldn't be happy, and find reasons to bitch and whine and push their own agenda.

When Raver and I do out big BETA PBEM that we have planned, should we post an AAR in the public forum? It would make lots of people happy, sure, it would try to inform people about the game, sure, but it would also make lots of people who have posted on this thread very, very unhappy when I crush the USN like an empty coke can.

What's the point??

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to CMDRMCTOAST)
Post #: 104
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/4/2004 4:56:13 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Luskan
What's the point??



After reading your post, that was my question.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Luskan)
Post #: 105
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/4/2004 5:28:36 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Luskan
What's the point??



After reading your post, that was my question.


You can look at his banana and still ask that?

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 106
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/4/2004 6:31:00 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		I'll look at his cabana, and I'll look at his bandana, I'll even sit on his divana, but I ain't looking at his banana.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 107
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/4/2004 11:08:06 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Luskan

Come on people! If Frag had posted a combat report from Pearl (like the reports that happen about half the time) where Kido Butai just doesn't do NEARLY as well as they did historically, would this thread be nearly as long?


Personally, I thought Frag posted exactly what he said he posted..., a really "high end
of the probablility table" PH strike result. My only comment on his results was that it
would have been nice if the programming would have kept the "torpedo hits" to those
targets on "Battleship Row" that were historically vulnerable to them. I made a simple
suggestion how this might be done. I had no trouble with his overall result. If you roll
the dice often enough "boxcars" is going to come up...or in Frag's terms, "Christmas
will come early". Actually, I tend to side with those who would like to see a scenario
start just after the PH raid, guaranteeing the Japanese player at least the historical
result. I'm all for the Japanese player having the freedom to do anything that was
reasonably possible. He's got a tough "row to hoe" overall, and deserves every actual
historic chance available.

(in reply to Luskan)
Post #: 108
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/4/2004 5:03:51 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rendova

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Brady (who thinks like an adult, but spells like an 8-year old) and YOU (who
spells like an adult, but acts like an 8-year old.


Not that there's anything wrong with that...



We all have a little 8 year old in us


In the spirit of this thread's digression...What did one child molester say to the other? Hey, can I borrow your eight year old, mine's ripped?

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Rendova)
Post #: 109
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/4/2004 5:57:06 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		Good post, Mike. As someone who will be playing the Japanese at least as frequently as the Allies, I hope there will be several alternative starting possibilities to explore.

I have never been convinced that the Pearl Harbor strike was the best application of the primary Japanese carrier strength in the Pacific. At the same time, repeated game play may change my mind on that.

It's a shame that the game is unable to model the inability of the inboard side BBs to be hit with torpedoes (not to mention Pennsylvania in drydock), but that's just too much detail to expect, I think.

The AARs covering early action seem to me to be pretty good. The one deficiency I see is the same one we've seen in UV: game players put all their assets to use all the time, resulting in a far bloodier war than was seen historically. As was discussed back in the early days, this is probably unavoidable and is at least held somewhat in check by such things as fatigue, low morale, routine system damage, and the like.

In short, I see little to complain or debate about. Let's get the freakin' thing done already.

Now, back to the nasty streak of perversion that has worked its way into the discussion.

Ron, that was awful. What do Michael Jackson and Wal-Mart have in common? Boys' jeans, half off.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 110
RE: Santa came early ... - 4/4/2004 7:26:57 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		No worries, Santa - this has happened to all of us now and then...

(okay, this one came late)

_____________________________

AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 111
RE: Santa came early ... - 4/4/2004 8:45:12 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

You really should program this, it is surely sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo easy....


It would be easy (certainly no more challenging, in general, than the parts of the algorithm that attempt to account for TF speed, flak, CAP and so forth). Just another element in a complex simulation.

For example, at least 50% of all tax software code falls in the category that Batchwhatever would call 'exception programming.' That doesn't stop people from releasing products like TurboTax. (They are, of course, held to a higher standard. That sort of software "matters" in the real world. No one would argue that it is appropriate, for example, to tell people who want to use ACRS depreciation rather than linear depreciation that they just can't have it in their product because the programmer fears his abilities may not be up to the task. Likewise, no vendor would argue that your Form 1040 tax prep software should not have to determine whether or not Alternative Minimum Tax applies to your income tax returm.)

In all the examples muddied about in this thread, the question should not be "is it doable?" but rather "is it worth doing?" No one is likely to convince me that we all (collectively) can find out enough about the effects of drifting smoke and flying debris on targeting that we may determine the scale of effect on targeting these should have on the simulation. So, given that there's no good basis for stuyding the problem (that I am aware of) why bother?

On the other hand, if you've got some good cause and effect type data that applies to this phenomenon, you should try to make your best case if you think it is worth pursuing. (And if your argument is based on empirical data you should be very skeptical of people who want to dismiss your opinion on the basis of some trivial non-squitur.)

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 4/4/2004 7:03:30 PM >

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 112
RE: Santa came early ... - 4/4/2004 11:15:22 PM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		mdiehl-
1. Why not offer your expertise to Matrix/2by3, since you're obviously skilled enough to be on the design team. I've loved all your other titles - each an instant classic.

2. Is non-sequitur a phrase you heard someone smart say and now you think it makes you look smart as well? Or do you have one of those "Phrase of the Day" calendars. Those are nice...

_____________________________

"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 113
RE: Santa came early ... - 4/5/2004 7:03:12 AM   
grumbler

 

Posts: 214
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Falls Church VA USA
Status: offline 		Wow, so much flaming over such a simple proposition! I dunno what to say about the odds of an "outlier" PH attack, but it is clear to me that mdiehl has been bashed by quite a cast of charactors for, essentially, just making common-sense suggestions.

So, for those of you who think they know everyone's programming skills and know what it will take matrix 15 years to do, I would say "lay off." If this isn't doable, it won't be done. If it is doable and worth doing, it will be. In the meantime, stop the personal attacks and the nonsequiturs (yes, that is a regular word and usable where appropriate without being a violation of the dictum to eschew obfuscation).

I enjoy reading flamewars as much as anybody, but I found it really easy to zip past a lot of these posts.

And mdiehl, I must admit I found your arguments persuasive, if perhaps based on inadequate information for your assessment of the outcome's tendency.

< Message edited by grumbler -- 4/5/2004 5:14:52 AM >

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 114
RE: Santa came early ... - 4/5/2004 7:19:44 AM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		Man!, This is getting as bad as the BattleFront forums Bewarechildren at war!

(in reply to grumbler)
Post #: 115
RE: Santa came early ... - 4/5/2004 2:51:06 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		Proposition: a thing worth doing is worth doing well.

Corollary #1: a thing not worth doing is not worth doing well.

Corollary #2: a thing worth doing is worth doing badly.

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 4/5/2004 8:01:47 AM >

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to grumbler)
Post #: 116
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/5/2004 3:12:01 PM   
tiredoftryingnames


Posts: 1919
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Chesapeake, Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Luskan
What's the point??



After reading your post, that was my question.


You can look at his banana and still ask that?


Let's leave the banana out of this.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 117
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/5/2004 5:56:41 PM   
Aztek

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 2/19/2003
Status: offline 		Seems to me if your going to be so picky as to where the Battleships are placed at Pearl in relation to torpedo damage the same logic would apply to all ports throughout the entire game. That would be a lot of extra work.

I see nothing wrong with how its handled now as several people have pointed out already. Dont waste the coders time.

_____________________________

Nothing quite like the feel of something new....

(in reply to tiredoftryingnames)
Post #: 118
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/6/2004 3:44:43 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		There is some validity to your arguement (one of the reasons I'm willing to live with
the situation as it is now). It comes up because it is THE starting point for the war,
and the last time anyone can say for certain exactly what was where..., and because
the game generally doesn't allow torpedo attacks on ships in port (or has that been
changed..., it's hard to keep up).

(in reply to Aztek)
Post #: 119
RE: Let me just adjust the gas a little here... - 4/6/2004 3:15:11 PM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


the game generally doesn't allow torpedo attacks on ships in port (or has that been
changed..., it's hard to keep up).


If you are refering to "disbanded" ships in port. I believe that is correct, but as far as I know air torpedo attacks on docked ships are still allowed. I am still seeing those Betty & Nells useing their torpedos in Singapore and Manila Naval bases.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 120
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