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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Heavy Weather

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Heavy Weather - 4/13/2004 3:14:41 PM

Blacksheep

Posts: 48
Joined: 9/4/2003
From: Maryland USA
Status: offline

With all the talk of midget subs, exotic aircraft, etc. that may or may not have have made some sort of difference, I think we are overlooking a factor that did have a real impact on USN operations and caused serious damage to US forces -- specifically typhoons.

At least three storms hit US TFs or bases causing major damage.

18 December 1944 East of Luzon a Typhoon hit TF38, sinking the Destroyers Hull, Spence, and Monaghan and seriously damaging a CA, five CV/CVL and three DDs. It also destroyed 146 aircraft.

3 June 1945 East of Okinawa TF 38.1 is replenishing from TF 30.8 when a Typhoon hit. In TF 38.1 CA 72 lost its bow and two other CA suffered frame damage, CVs 12 and 20 suffered sever flight deck damage while CV 24 lost an elevator. A DD also suffer severe structural damage. In TF 30.8, CVE's 92 and 96 lost parts of their flight decks, and an AO was damages. A total of 76 aircraft were from all carriers.

4 October 1945 Buckner Bay, Okinawa (Staging area for Operation Olympic) a typhoon hit. It sank 12 ships/craft, beached 222, severly damaged 32. Damaged 60 aircraft, destroyed almost all food, medical supplies and other stores and knocked down 80 % of the housing and other buildings. To quote the naval historical center, "If the war had not ended on September 2, this damage, especially the grounding and damage to 107 amphibious craft...would likely have seriously impacted the planned invasion of Japan."

These storms are major considerations which I believe should be factored into the game. It may be too late to get it into the original production run, but I think it is a worthy subject for an early patch.

Post #: 1

RE: Heavy Weather - 4/13/2004 3:20:01 PM

MButtazoni

Posts: 1494
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline

so this is 0.001% of the total american forces in the Pacific?

_____________________________

Maurice Buttazoni
Project Coordinator, Playtest Coordinator

(in reply to Blacksheep)

Post #: 2

RE: Heavy Weather - 4/13/2004 4:06:59 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blacksheep

With all the talk of midget subs, exotic aircraft, etc. that may or may not have have made some sort of difference, I think we are overlooking a factor that did have a real impact on USN operations and caused serious damage to US forces -- specifically typhoons.

At least three storms hit US TFs or bases causing major damage.

18 December 1944 East of Luzon a Typhoon hit TF38, sinking the Destroyers Hull, Spence, and Monaghan and seriously damaging a CA, five CV/CVL and three DDs. It also destroyed 146 aircraft.

3 June 1945 East of Okinawa TF 38.1 is replenishing from TF 30.8 when a Typhoon hit. In TF 38.1 CA 72 lost its bow and two other CA suffered frame damage, CVs 12 and 20 suffered sever flight deck damage while CV 24 lost an elevator. A DD also suffer severe structural damage. In TF 30.8, CVE's 92 and 96 lost parts of their flight decks, and an AO was damages. A total of 76 aircraft were from all carriers.

4 October 1945 Buckner Bay, Okinawa (Staging area for Operation Olympic) a typhoon hit. It sank 12 ships/craft, beached 222, severly damaged 32. Damaged 60 aircraft, destroyed almost all food, medical supplies and other stores and knocked down 80 % of the housing and other buildings. To quote the naval historical center, "If the war had not ended on September 2, this damage, especially the grounding and damage to 107 amphibious craft...would likely have seriously impacted the planned invasion of Japan."

These storms are major considerations which I believe should be factored into the game. It may be too late to get it into the original production run, but I think it is a worthy subject for an early patch.

BB Mutsu sank as aresult of an internal magazine explosion. Mogami and Mikuma were ravaged after colliding at Midway and would not have been sunk/damaged otherwise. BBs Washington and Indiana were out of action for months due to a collision. After Pearl Harbor, aside from USS Richmond at Komandorski Islands, all Omaha class CLs were viewed as obsolete and escorted convoys and guarded the Panama canal, but players will use these ships "ahistorically" anyway. S Boats, Dolphin, Cachalot, Cuttlefish, Porpoise and Salmon/Sargo class SSs were all retired early during the war due to their obsolecence, but players will still use them as well.

At what point do we say enough?

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Blacksheep)

Post #: 3

RE: Heavy Weather - 4/13/2004 4:08:35 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

quote:

At what point do we say enough?

After the 10th patch

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 4

RE: Heavy Weather - 4/13/2004 5:34:53 PM

Blacksheep

Posts: 48
Joined: 9/4/2003
From: Maryland USA
Status: offline

MButtazoni -- yes the US has a lot of material, but at that point in time aside from Kamikazes the weather was doing more damage to the US Navy than the Japanese military. Also given the victory conditions on the Campaign scenerio anything that impacts the final surrender of Japan can influence the outcome of the game, i.e. the delay of operation Olympic.

Also since weather is random and neutral, who's to say that typhoons would hit solely US forces or occur only late in the war? The truly bad weather in the Pacific was a factor that all fleet commanders faced and all had to work around.

Ron Saueracker -- I'm not sure what your point is, comparing a collision between a couple of ships and a typhoon hitting a fleet is like comparing a fender bender to a train wreck. Maybe there should be a random events table for the occurrence you cited, but I submit that the trashing a fleet has far deeper implications that the damage or even sinking of one or two ships.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 5

RE: Heavy Weather - 4/13/2004 9:27:35 PM

Rendova

Posts: 405
Joined: 2/28/2004
From: Atlanta
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blacksheep

Ron Saueracker -- I'm not sure what your point is, comparing a collision between a couple of ships and a typhoon hitting a fleet is like comparing a fender bender to a train wreck. Maybe there should be a random events table for the occurrence you cited, but I submit that the trashing a fleet has far deeper implications that the damage or even sinking of one or two ships.

I think his point was that the game is already so big and complicated you just can't account for everything. What about a roll for lower gunnery accuracy due to drunken crews if the ship was at a liberty port within the last 48 Hours?

< Message edited by Rendova -- 4/13/2004 2:55:36 PM >

(in reply to Blacksheep)

Post #: 6

RE: Heavy Weather - 4/13/2004 9:59:14 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

Hmmm, perhaps ... yea, thats it ... a typhoon warning!

You have 5 days to get everything into a port!

Ships still at sea take 30+(RND 70) SYS damage.

(in reply to Rendova)

Post #: 7

RE: Heavy Weather - 4/16/2004 12:58:29 AM

panda124c

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Hmmm, perhaps ... yea, thats it ... a typhoon warning!

You have 5 days to get everything into a port!

Ships still at sea take 30+(RND 70) SYS damage.

And if you are Halsey you can ignore it.

Very bad weather should be a feature of the weather systems with approprate warnings since it will deny access to that area of the map and greatly reduce any spotting attempts. The Japanese moved into the PH area behind/in a storm front. The use of a storm front is a valid method of reducing your chance of being spotted, thereby achiveing suprise.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 8