Trench warafre/open warfare.

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War I] >> Guns of August 1914 - 1918 >> Trench warafre/open warfare.

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Trench warafre/open warfare. - 4/20/2004 2:35:42 AM

wodin

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Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
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I hope the game does a good job of recreating both styles.

The first few months of the conflict was open as was the warfare from the Geramn push in 1918 onwards.

The consensus at the time was that without a war of attrition the success of the allied offensive in 1918 wouldnt have been possible without the years of bloody attrition which served to slowley destroy the men and moral of the German Army which had been raised and trained for a european war which the British had not.

Also it was with great cost in men, though highly succesful, to launch the allied offensive at keep it up for the months from July onwards (1918).

Here is a list of battle sand casualty figures as well as prisoners and guns captured.

The battle of Amiens Aug 8th - 13th
battle of Bapaume Aug 21st - Sep 1st
Battle of Scarpe Aug 26th - Sept 3rd
Battle of havrincourt and Epehy Sept 12th 18th
Battle of Cambrai and the Hidenburg Line Sept 27th - Oct 5th
Battle of Flanders Sept 28th _ Oct 14th
Battle of Le Cateau Oct 6th - 12th
The Battle of the Selle Oct 17th - 25th
Battle of the Smbre Nov 1st - 11th

British loses 17,426 officers and 340,723 other ranks for the fighting from Aug to Oct the grand total if you include Nov is around 375,000.

From July the 18th when the Allies passed to counter attack

Britsh took 188,700 prisoners 2840 guns
French took 139,000 prisoners 1880 guns
American took 43,000 prisoners 1421 guns
belgian took 14,500 prisoners 474 guns.

Quite astounding isnt it!

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RE: Trench warafre/open warfare. - 4/20/2004 4:05:47 PM

wodin

Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline

The above figures show just how many casualties that the British took alone ( the Fench and americans also took severe casualties) in open warfare towards the end of the war.

This was against a beaten army not the army from 1914 who were the best in the world at that time. Trench warfare became unavoidable as the French and the British could only just hold on.

It did take all those years of hell to make it possible to attck Germany and force them into a retreat, this just wasnt possible before.

Though the Somme battles were a disaster for the allies it did pretty much destroy the german army of 1914 and lower their moral considerably.

< Message edited by wodin -- 4/20/2004 2:10:44 PM >

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RE: Trench warafre/open warfare. - 4/20/2004 6:28:16 PM

*Lava*

Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
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Hi!

1914 saw the execution of the Schlieffen Plan which nearly succeeded in winning the war for the Germans. This was a plan of maneuver, perhaps a bit too ambitious, or perhaps failing in execution. Here's what I remember off the top of my head.

The Germans recieved unexpected resistance at Liege by the Belgic Army. Although the fortress there fell within a day, the river crossing of the Meuse river was protected by a number of smaller fortresses which were able to hinder German movement across the river for almost 10 days. I have seen photos of the area spotlighting destroyed bridges. I've lost it now, but if you goggle Liege there is a really good site out there which explains the battle in excellent detail.

As the Germans attacked Belgium, the French were conducting offensive operations to recover Alace-Lorreine on the Franco-German border. The French High Command was slow in interpreting the German move, but were able to shift their forces northwards as the Germans entered France near Lille. The BEF engaged the Germans but were forced to retreat. As the Germans wheeled south-westwards towards Paris, Von Moltke chose to ignore Paris in pursuit of the French army. This movement, however, left the German right flank vulnerable to attack from the west and from the southeast in which a gap had opened in the German line. (Did von Molkte fail to heed Schlieffen's warning to keep the right strong?) French forces attacked the exposed German right flank from the direction of Paris with the newly formed VI Army while the Brits attacked through the gap in the German line in what was come to be called the Battle of the Marne. This attack forced the Germans, now exhausted, to retreat. Within 2 weeks, the race to the sea and the building of trench systems by both sides would mark the end of the Schlieffen Plan.

This is an intriguing era, filled with "what ifs." Hopefully, in Frank's game you will be able to explore those "what ifs" and possibly change history.

BTW there are lots of web sites on world war one. I'm not an expert on the subject by any means. Here's just one of many available out there:

http://www.worldwar1.com/tlwplans.htm

Ray (alias Lava)

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RE: Trench warafre/open warfare. - 4/20/2004 11:22:23 PM

Left handed Schlieffen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
As the Germans wheeled south-westwards towards Paris, Von Moltke chose to ignore Paris in pursuit of the French army. This movement, however, left the German right flank vulnerable to attack from the west and from the southeast in which a gap had opened in the German line. (Did von Molkte fail to heed Schlieffen's warning to keep the right strong?)
Ray (alias Lava)

I thought it was more that Von Kluck made the decision to ignore Paris and have a go at the retreating French. Von Moltke was to weak minded and indecisive to overrule Von Klucks initiative.

(in reply to *Lava*)

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RE: Trench warafre/open warfare. - 4/21/2004 12:12:18 AM

*Lava*

Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline

Hi!

Maybe it was. Just trying to play up some of the dynamics of the game there...

Actually, I didn't concentrate much study on the leaders involved, but the movement of armies and logistics. What I was really trying to get a grip on, but personally never really felt I understood well enough, was the logistic support needed for the German offensive. Indeed, in trying to understand the rest of the war, I felt that it must have been a logistical nightmare to try to exploit a breech in the trenches when you consider all the trench lines, no man's land and then another set of trench lines that was necessary to cross. Unfortunately, I never really found a source on hand which went into any great depth on that subject.

Ray (alias Lava)

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RE: Trench warafre/open warfare. - 4/21/2004 12:03:23 PM

GWL_Tim

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Joined: 3/19/2004
From: Brighton, UK
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I mentioned it in another thread but try Nial Fergusons The Pity of War. It goes into great depth regarding casaulties, reasons men fought, why the Schlieffen plan failed and why he believes Germany could never win the war because of pure economics. (If I remember correctly!). I seem to recall him saying the plan was flawed from the start due to railway timetables and that the rail system couldn't carry the amount of men needed for the right flank. The Belgian resistance at Liege and elsewhere and the weaking of the flank only compounded the problems.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140275231/ref=sr_aps_books_1_2/202-5772164-2632656 - read the reviews

< Message edited by GWL_Tim -- 4/21/2004 10:11:53 AM >

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