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- 11/5/2001 9:14:00 PM

Jarkko

Posts: 75
Joined: 1/6/2001
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Penetrator:
What I have seen is this:
Modern bolt action rifles (Lee-Enfield, Kar98 etc) have accuracy 4, except Moisin-Nagant, 3.
SMGs in 9mm parabellum usually have accuracy 3.
PPSH: 7,62mm acc 2.
Thompson, .45cal acc 2.
M3 .45cal acc 1.
All these SMG have range 4.
Then there is the 7,65mm Suomi with accuracy 3, range 6(!). This weapon was well made with an unusually long barrel. I have a bad experience from knocking the Finns, but hmmm... 50% more range? After all, the cartridge is perhaps the biggest factor, and this one is not that strong. This makes it the ultimate "firehose" around. Granted of course, the Suomi has all these characteristics and then better. Food for thought.

Suomi SMG in the game is M/31, which is uses 9mm x 19. Only about 200 Suomi M/26 SMG were manufactured (in 7.65mm x 19) and they didn't see frontline use. Ammunition used in Suomi M/31 was a very hot load indeed (enough so to easily break practically all pistols available in that caliber). Suomi M/31 was 1st generation SMG with parts machined from solid steel and with extremely high quality barrels. They were also considered as weapons having such a prestige and quality that they were usually issued to best shooters of each squad. Most typical magasine type used in Suomi M/31 SMG was 70-round drum (which Soviets copied to their SMGs). Shortly said, it was extremely realible and accurate SMG with plenty of firepower. Problem was that it also was quite heavy and very expensive & difficult to manufacture. Check: http://guns.connect.fi/gow/suomi1.html

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(in reply to Mikimoto)

Post #: 31

- 11/6/2001 2:14:00 AM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline

For Combat Leader, small arms data will come pretty much from the data tables of Ian Hogg's Greenhill Firearms Data Book. It has all the performance data on pistols, SMG's Carbines, Rifles (including some ATR's) and MG's together with ammo data. May not be 100% accurate, but Hogg is as respected an expert as they come and its all consistent. And it covers post Civil war to 1999. Firepower will be a function of ROF, Muzzle velocity, bullet mass, magazine capacity and action type. There will be a preference dial for "infantry firepower" that will let you adjust the result to taste. If you want to scale a particular componat you will have to edit the OOB file.

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(in reply to Mikimoto)

Post #: 32

- 11/9/2001 2:17:00 PM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

Jarrko Interesting article on the Suomi ..thanks for the link
Small arms are a tricky issue, rate of fire range, accuracy, ect, are to a greater or lesser degree dependant on the operator. Given the variety of individual weapons and some really subtile operational differences it may be in fact difficult to effectively model some , but i might be worth trying ..sometimes even the names they are given confuse things even more ..
Take for example ..The Suomi SMG and the US M2 carbine ..very compareable weapons ..but the M2 is not even in the game as a auto firing assualt rifle, which it could be considered as, ( or a very accurate SMG like the Suomi, but having selectible fire option like the Suomi doesn't apparently ) .. some SMGs are designed with high rates of fire that make them practically useless at over 100 meters (2 hexes) because they can't be controled in full auto , but deadly at close range .. while others have lower rates of fire but are useful at longer ranges Like MP44..
I was thinking about this at the range today while firing my Mosin-Nagant M44 carbine and my Lee-Enfield.. they had about the same accuracy at 50 meters and 100 meters .. but at 150 meters the longer sight Radius of My No4 started making a difference .. also little things, like the Bolt cocking on opening or on closing made keeping the sight picture definately easier with the Enfield .. even thought the stock on the Mosin-Nagant is a better fit and a quicker pointer for me ... the most amazing little difference turned up ..thats is almost trivial on it's face .. but still could be serious in combat .. both weapons fire a Rimmed Cartridge and both are loaded via striper clips .. due to the Mosin-Nagants straight Magazine construction it is possible to insert the stripper clip in a manner that results in the cartridges catching on the rim of the round beneath them in the magazine while firing ( ie. the striper clips have a rightside and a wrongside up ..but it is not marked on the clip so you have to physically look to check when loading the M44 and other single stacked magazine weapons using rimmed cartridges ) , While staggarded Magazines like the Enfield and Mauser have the cartridges arranged in the stripper clips in such a fashion that it doesn't matter which end of the clip is inserted despite the rim ,( so long as the cartridges are properly loaded in the stripper clip to start with) .. On the Mosin improper loading would cause a jam and subsequent forcing of the bolt would only make things worse .. this means you would have to unload and then reload the magazine manually ... all things considered I can fire the Enfield twice as fast , with far less chance of a temporary jam..Small things and maybe not important in the overall picture .. but definately situation of not all bolt action rifles being equal ..
Similarily the Finnish Mosin-Nagants are different than their Russian twins, due to the Barrels being free floating on the Finnish Models ( even the captured ones , that were invariably modified with shims between the stock and the barrel among other things to improve accuracy ) resulting in at least twice the theorical accuracy of otherwise identical rifles ( see that first link I posted on thecruffler match data base ).
Similar equipment on different weapons make a big difference , for example the Finns do not seem to have high regard for the compensator on the Suomi and it didn't seem to offer much improvement according to Jarrko's link ..while the near Identical compensator on a Thompson SMG greatly improved both range and controlability in full auto fire...
Triva and Trival stuff maybe .. but then again maybe worthy of consideration and representation ..if not in SPWAW then maybe in CL/CA ..
Part of the developmental problems on some of the full sized cartridge firing semi auto weapons the Germans intially developed which were less than sucsessful,( as i understand things), due to jamming from feed problems with Rimmed Cartridges ..requiring a rimless cartridge like used in the MP44/StrumGeshutz for final sucess..
Again small details .. possibly not worthy of modeling .. but on the otherhand maybe they are ..

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"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

(in reply to Mikimoto)

Post #: 33