Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

MOGAMI I never said the didn't attack Singapore. I said they couldn't quite make the
trip in TORPEDO-BOMBER mode. Flying in BOMBER mode, and especially with a reduced
payload, they could range out to about 1400 miles and back.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Lol! before you Allied Fanboys are finished, you will have the Betty flying less distance the a B-25!

Empty: (G4M1) 14,860 lb (6,741 kg); (G4M2) 17,623 lb (7,994 kg); (G4M3) 18,500 lb (8,391 kg)
Loaded: (G4M1) 20,944 lb (9,500 kg); (G4M2,3) 27,550 lb (12,500 kg)
Maximum Overload: (G4M1) 28,350 lb (12,860 kg); (G4M2,3) 33,070 lb (15,000 kg)
Range at Maximum Overload: (G4M1) 3,132 miles (5,040 km); (G4M2) 2,982 miles (4,800 km); (G4M3) 2,262 miles (3,640 km)

The whole reason the darn things were paper thin was because of the range! There was NOTHING on the aircraft in the way of protection to keep the weight down to keep the RANGE up!

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I am with Byron13 right now in still being slightly confused. I've been playing the game expecting that any TF on the map is vulnerable to air attack, including torpedoes.

So this is what I understand to be the case:

Disbanded ships in port are invlunerable to torpedo attack. They can only be attacked as part of a port attack. All the remaining cases will be Naval Attacks.

TFs that are docked (loading or unloading) are vulnerable to air launched torpedo attacks but not to submarine launched torpedo attacks.

TFs that are anchored (loading or unloading) in a port are vulnerable to all torpedo attacks.

TFs that are not docked or anchored in a port hex are vulnerable to all torpedo attacks.


Is this impression correct?

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pascal

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Lol! before you Allied Fanboys are finished, you will have the Betty flying less distance the a B-25!

Empty: (G4M1) 14,860 lb (6,741 kg); (G4M2) 17,623 lb (7,994 kg); (G4M3) 18,500 lb (8,391 kg)
Loaded: (G4M1) 20,944 lb (9,500 kg); (G4M2,3) 27,550 lb (12,500 kg)
Maximum Overload: (G4M1) 28,350 lb (12,860 kg); (G4M2,3) 33,070 lb (15,000 kg)
Range at Maximum Overload: (G4M1) 3,132 miles (5,040 km); (G4M2) 2,982 miles (4,800 km); (G4M3) 2,262 miles (3,640 km)

The whole reason the darn things were paper thin was because of the range! There was NOTHING on the aircraft in the way of protection to keep the weight down to keep the RANGE up!

Mr. Frag, where did you find this data? Have a good reference book?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pascal

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Lol! before you Allied Fanboys are finished, you will have the Betty flying less distance the a B-25!

Empty: (G4M1) 14,860 lb (6,741 kg); (G4M2) 17,623 lb (7,994 kg); (G4M3) 18,500 lb (8,391 kg)
Loaded: (G4M1) 20,944 lb (9,500 kg); (G4M2,3) 27,550 lb (12,500 kg)
Maximum Overload: (G4M1) 28,350 lb (12,860 kg); (G4M2,3) 33,070 lb (15,000 kg)
Range at Maximum Overload: (G4M1) 3,132 miles (5,040 km); (G4M2) 2,982 miles (4,800 km); (G4M3) 2,262 miles (3,640 km)

The whole reason the darn things were paper thin was because of the range! There was NOTHING on the aircraft in the way of protection to keep the weight down to keep the RANGE up!

Mr. Frag, where did you find this data? Have a good reference book?

Original navy design specs - 1938. The puppy had 5,000 liter wing tanks, thats why they were so easy to flame. It wasn't until the G4M3 that these tanks were reduced in size and the range dropped. The design specs demanded a range of 2,000 nautical miles, which is one of the reasons there are only 2 engines. Misubishi wanted to put 4 engines on these planes but were not permitted due to the range reduction that it would have caused.

It is the very same reason that Japan had such range on their float planes and patrol aircraft. The Navy boys knew they were on an island and that way of thinking affected every design that they got their hands on.

You will notice that the exact opposite is true with the Army designed aircraft, they have virtually no range at all.

The USA, being more of a level headed bunch ended up with a general bill of goods that worked for both the Army and Navy, middle range and good payload.

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

I think you will find the distance from Rabaul to Lunga is just about 600 statute miles as
the crow flys..., and while the Japanese were certainly able to make torpedo attacks
there they were pretty much "at the end of their rope." At Lunga they had the great
advantage of knowing exavtly where the targets would be before they left---so there was
no need to allow a fuel "reserve" to search the area when they arrived. And there were
plaenty of "friendly checkpoints" on the route to avoid any navigation hazards. It was
about as good a situation for making a long ranged strike as they could hope to get.

The same is basically true of a strike on Singapore (the harbor wasn't going to move)
but the additional 75 miles out and 75 miles back were enough to make the "possible"
into the "totally unlikely". Which is why in reality they waited to intercept Phillips until
the range was down to about 450 miles---this gave them enough "search radius" when
they arrived at the "reported sighting" to hunt down the British TF and attack it with
great success. If the game keeps "stretching" the combat radius of the A/C involved,
it's going to end up playing out in strange and ahistoric ways. It needs to model the
realistic capabilities of the actual war for all airgroups and not be based on a few ex-
ceptional examples.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Luskan

Yes, correct, however all these allied fanboys are missing an important distinction between WITP and UV. You can disband LOADED ships (with cargo or even troops I think) into port and they'll unload.

quote:

IS this true? You can dispand loaded ships and they will unload? If it is I think its great as long as we eventually get limits on how many ships can be dispanded in port at any given time.

quote:

The reason the IJN bombers were at the limit of there range at the time of the actual attack was becuase they had been aloft for hours searching for the elusive Force Z.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

The reason the IJN bombers were at the limit of there range at the time of the actual attack was becuase they had been aloft for hours searching for the elusive Force Z.

Great point Tim, glad someone brought it out.

It is one thing to take off, form up, and fly directly to an unmoving target. It is something else entirely to take off, fly search looking for a TF, then reform and attack.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
I've found to my suprise the G3M and G4M1 always flew without bomb bay doors except for transfer and unarmed patrol. The aircraft had no inflight operating door.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Original navy design specs - 1938. The puppy had 5,000 liter wing tanks, thats why they were so easy to flame. It wasn't until the G4M3 that these tanks were reduced in size and the range dropped. The design specs demanded a range of 2,000 nautical miles, which is one of the reasons there are only 2 engines. Misubishi wanted to put 4 engines on these planes but were not permitted due to the range reduction that it would have caused.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

The Japanese did not attack Singapore aka "Pearl Harbor" because on 12/7 and before they had no plans to do so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Lets be aware of the "hindsight" factor here. The Japanese did not attack Singapore aka "Pearl Harbor" because on 12/7 and before they had no plans to do so. On dec 8th though, a C5M recon plane did fly over the base with the intention of determining whether or not Force Z was still in the harbor. It was at this point that the Japanese determined that they had to "do something" about Force Z because they didn't want it interfering with their invasion and they realized that Force Z was more powerful than their two BB's covering the invaison. They resolved at this point to conduct a torpedo attack [Shores...pg 108 vol I)


However Force Z then belatedly put to sea...throwing the Japanese into a panic and making them scramble to locate the ships.....that led to the big search, and the subsequent attack.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Subchaser


Incorrect. Japanese were going to attack british capital ships in Singapore port on 9th dec (at night and with bombs!), mission wasn’t flown due to the known reasons. They attempted to attack Singapore on 8th dec also, in the morning Nells from 22nd Koku Sentai was trying to deliver some bombs on Singapore, but due to the heavy weather mission was aborted. Kanoya Ku was given a task to attack British Eastern Fleet with torps, and idea of Singapore port attack was discussed but was abandoned because Matsunaga thought that bombers would suffer extremely heavy losses, but initial plan was to get Force Z in port, that’s why torpedoes (type 91 kai 2) designed for PH were delivered to Kanoya air group, they quite successfully used them on Force Z, but in the open sea.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

Nik, I find this very interesting. I have Shores (Vol. II) but not (Vol.I) yet, I find his work very credible and well researched. However, I can site many very credible sources that state unequically that the bombers of the 22nd AirFlotilla were sent to indo-china specifically to deal with the the threat of Force Z. It was to be the equalizer for the IJNs outgunned BBs.

That they hadnt planned on attacking force Z in harbor , had more to do with the fact that the war started in Malaya at roughly 1:00am (Night) Dec 8th. I doubt the suspected force Z would still be there by daybreak and even if it had the make up of the base would make a successful torp attack unlikely at best. I know of the attack ordered on the 8th but this is the first I have ever heard that it was to be a torpedo attack. I have no reason to doubt "Shores" and certainly it was possible that out of panick and desperation a torpedo attack was ordered. Just the same I also have no doubt, based on what I know of the layout of the naval base and the berthing dispositions (which included torp netting ) that had such an attack occured it would have been futile and failed miserably.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Like I said ... Navy design specs ... Mitsubishi aircraft ... 1938

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

quote:

ORIGINAL: Subchaser

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

The Japanese did not attack Singapore aka "Pearl Harbor" because on 12/7 and before they had no plans to do so.

Incorrect. Japanese were going to attack british capital ships in Singapore port on 9th dec (at night and with bombs!), mission wasn’t flown due to the known reasons. They attempted to attack Singapore on 8th dec also, in the morning Nells from 22nd Koku Sentai was trying to deliver some bombs on Singapore, but due to the heavy weather mission was aborted. Kanoya Ku was given a task to attack British Eastern Fleet with torps, and idea of Singapore port attack was discussed but was abandoned because Matsunaga thought that bombers would suffer extremely heavy losses, but initial plan was to get Force Z in port, that’s why torpedoes (type 91 kai 2) designed for PH were delivered to Kanoya air group, they quite successfully used them on Force Z, but in the open sea.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT


Subchaser, I would be really interested in your source. Not that I doubt it, just that early war operations is a particular interest of mine and I am very interested in any new information can get on the subject.

I have no doubt a torp attack was initially considered, It obviously would be the first questioned asked as soon as the arrival of force Z was known. But I have never come across any information that would indicate that planning went much beyond that stage. Does your source indicate what the exact plan of attack was? The feasibility of flight paths, approaches, depths, dock locations, harbor defences, ect..... Did they train on a dummy harbor ala the Pearl Harbor attack force? Keeping in mind they only became aware that the Force Z was going to be deployed at Singapore on Nov.28th, that would only leave about a week to prepare for an attack.

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pascal

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Like I said ... Navy design specs ... Mitsubishi aircraft ... 1938

But where did you find these?

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(