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planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/6/2004 7:52:39 PM   
sven6345789

 

Posts: 1050
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Sandviken, Sweden
Status: offline 		Do the japanese subs have the ability to carry floatplanes?
Is the big I-400 series included?
Are there rules for Kaiten Torpedoes?

_____________________________

Bougainville, November 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. It rained today.

Letter from a U.S. Marine,November 1943
Post #: 1
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/6/2004 8:03:11 PM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		I am fairly certain that The Japanese Sub's that could will be able to cary float plaes in WiTP, if I recal corectly Mogami mentioned that they could.

I dont know about the I 400, and I beelave that Kaiten are not as yet modeled in the Game, nore or any of the Midget subs, but I am not 100% certain on this.

(in reply to sven6345789)
Post #: 2
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/6/2004 8:06:42 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		yes

certain IJN sub classes do carry and can operate their floatplane.

Ask Pry....he had a bunch of fun with them in our last AAR

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RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/6/2004 8:14:45 PM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		"Ask Pry....he had a bunch of fun with them in our last AAR "

Kaiten?

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Post #: 4
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/6/2004 10:07:35 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		no Kaitens

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Post #: 5
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/6/2004 11:56:24 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Because each hex is 60 miles Kaiten would just be another means of the submarine attacking. (They would not be independant counters.) An interesting item that can't be done because of the game scale.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 6
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/7/2004 12:21:09 AM   
Tiornu

 

Posts: 1126
Joined: 4/1/2004
Status: offline 		A quick look reveals the following IJN sub types as aircraft-carrying: J1M (until 1940 only), J2, J3, A1, A2, AM, B1 , B2, B3, B4, and of course the STo type. That makes about forty subs in total.

(in reply to sven6345789)
Post #: 7
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/7/2004 1:05:03 AM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		I am shure if they wanted to a way could be found to Include Kaitens, Subs can cary planes, and in a since they could cary Kaitens as well, though it is a guided torpedo, with a big warhead, it would require a a bit of work, and work I am not capable of totaly fathoming.

(in reply to Tiornu)
Post #: 8
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/7/2004 1:26:10 AM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		Brady,
You're beautiful man... Just beautiful!

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"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

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Post #: 9
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/7/2004 1:29:09 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		Since these aircraft were to be used prmarily for recon, will it show the dreaded red line of approach? Or does that only appear from land bases air units?

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Post #: 10
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/7/2004 1:35:28 AM   
pasternakski


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: madflava13

Brady,
You're beautiful man... Just beautiful!


In a since.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 11
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/7/2004 1:48:40 AM   
sven6345789

 

Posts: 1050
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Sandviken, Sweden
Status: offline 		I thought of the Kaitens more of a weapon like the okha. The warhead of a Kaiten was bigger than that of a normal torpedo, and it was guided. Therefore, hit percentage would be higher with more damage done.
But...
I was just curious. I will enjoy this game with or without.
actually, as much as i know, only one or two really successful kaiten attacks were undertaken. Therefore, it doesn't really matter.

_____________________________

Bougainville, November 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. It rained today.

Letter from a U.S. Marine,November 1943

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 12
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/7/2004 1:53:58 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		You could create, within the database, a duplicate class of Japanese submarine that fires what in effect would be a Kaiten weapon. you need to design said weapon in the database, give it ACC and warhead ratings and have at it.

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Post #: 13
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/7/2004 2:12:56 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

You could create, within the database, a duplicate class of Japanese submarine that fires what in effect would be a Kaiten weapon. you need to design said weapon in the database, give it ACC and warhead ratings and have at it.


Is there any way to build in a modifier to account for the poor b@stards welded into these things who sea-chickened out or, more numerously, didn't know how to drive this underwater Toyota?

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 14
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/7/2004 6:03:24 AM   
Rendova


Posts: 405
Joined: 2/28/2004
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

You could create, within the database, a duplicate class of Japanese submarine that fires what in effect would be a Kaiten weapon. you need to design said weapon in the database, give it ACC and warhead ratings and have at it.


Is there any way to build in a modifier to account for the poor b@stards welded into these things who sea-chickened out or, more numerously, didn't know how to drive this underwater Toyota?


Pasternakski what are you thinking!

No pilot ever chickened out in his duties as a Kaiten driver, don't you remember how they sank the 3 Iowa BB's? They were the best friggin' weapon of the war! (Well besides the Kate which had a range 6000 miles and could carry the converted Guided missile version of the Yamato (of course the gunner had to stay at home)). Kaitens were the great weapon that won the war for Japan.

BTW how much oil hauling capacity will the Kaitens have?

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 15
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/7/2004 7:06:08 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		", Subs can cary planes, and in a since they could cary Kaitens as well,"

Wow... for a moment I thought that Brady was suggesting that the Kaitens could be air-launched. I was picturing the poor bastards that would be inside an air-launched kaiten. Ouch!!

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Rendova)
Post #: 16
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/7/2004 9:32:32 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


Is there any way to build in a modifier to account for the poor b@stards welded into these things who sea-chickened out or, more numerously, didn't know how to drive this underwater Toyota?


I think you know the answer to that question. That, along with the time factor is why you will most likely not see Kaitens employed in the manner that i described "officially". Deciding such stats would be, and will be quite a pickle because in the end, the weapon must be shaped to work within the standard sub attack framework that has been set in the game engine since UV days, aka.....the "Kaiten" weapon will be launched from a sub that rolls to attack a ship.

Who decides what ACC rating the "weapon" should receive and by what means is the rating acheived ?

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Post #: 17
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/7/2004 11:23:14 AM   
Subchaser


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Joined: 11/15/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: madflava13

Brady,
You're beautiful man... Just beautiful!


You’ve just seen his profile photo?

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Post #: 18
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/7/2004 11:16:32 PM   
Tiornu

 

Posts: 1126
Joined: 4/1/2004
Status: offline 		The hit rate with kaitens was almost certainly worse than with conventional torpedoes. As noted only two ships were successfully hit by kaitens. I have their names stamped indelibly in my memory....
Further review has shown that the stamp is indeed quite delible--who'da think it? But I believe the two victims were the DE Underwood and the oiler Mississinewa, and anyone indelicate enough to correct my spelling gets an automatic D-.
The low hit rate of kaitens may be due partly to the targets selected (in protected anchorages, where conventional torpedoes weren't an option), but at sea, it's still preferable to be on board a nice big sub with targeting gear. The fact is that it's very difficult even to see a ship when you're in a manned torpedo.

(in reply to sven6345789)
Post #: 19
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/8/2004 1:23:56 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		Aah, light, men. Today, you crimb down into manned tolpedo, we weld hatch shut, you dlive out to Yankee freet, clash into ship, kirr youserf and arr on boald.

Question? Yeah, you, Hashimoto in the back.

"Captain, you outta you f#cking mind."

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Tiornu)
Post #: 20
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/8/2004 5:48:33 AM   
Rendova


Posts: 405
Joined: 2/28/2004
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Aah, light, men. Today, you crimb down into manned tolpedo, we weld hatch shut, you dlive out to Yankee freet, clash into ship, kirr youserf and arr on boald.

Question? Yeah, you, Hashimoto in the back.

"Captain, you outta you f#cking mind."


Really got to wonder about that mindset

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 21
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/8/2004 6:03:43 AM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		The Book I-Boat Cpatain, has several passages in it that detail the operations of the Kaiten. Their piolets were specialy trained men who were taken aboard along with their Kaitens, before Launch a special cermony was preformed (like the Kamakise piolets had), they intered their craft through if I remember corectly a special hatchway, and then were launched to their targets, in the book one of the Kaitens malfunctioned and could not be launched it's piolet was extreamly disapointed that he could not go...

The man who sank the Indanapolis was intergated after the war and I beleave he rated them a 1 in 3 as being suxcesfull in hitting the target...I nead to check that figure though...

(in reply to Rendova)
Post #: 22
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/8/2004 4:31:54 PM   
Damien Thorn

 

Posts: 1107
Joined: 7/24/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rendova

Really got to wonder about that mindset


Not really. It's the same mindset that you see in suicide bombers in the middle east today, or at least similar. It's people who have lost all hope for the future. It's people who feel they have nothing to live for and nothing to lose. It's a strong sense of duty that overwhelms sense of survival. In the same was that a fireman would risk his own life to do his duty and try adn rescue someone from a burning building. If his sense of duty couldn't overcome his sense of survival he would refuse to go into the burning building.

To most Japanese, Kamikaze or not, they felt that they were going to die anyway by 1945. So, if you know you are going to die, why not go out in a blaze of glory using the latest and greates sucide weapon instead of trying to fight conventionally, which obviously wasn't working. I imagine the kamikaze pilots thought it was the non-kamikaze pilots who were throwing their lives away because they stood no chance of doing any significant damage to the enemy before dying. The kamikaze at least stood a chance. Sure, he would die but there is a difference in dying and throwing one's life away.

I'm not saying I agree with that mindset but that's how I think they saw it.

(in reply to Rendova)
Post #: 23
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/8/2004 6:24:10 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

The man who sank the Indanapolis was intergated after the war and I beleave he rated them a 1 in 3 as being suxcesfull in hitting the target


He would not have been qualified to make that judgement, since he was not informed as to the number of attacks launched vs the number of attacks that succeeded. That's one of the problems with anecdotes. They're not worth dreck.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 24
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/8/2004 6:25:59 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

BTW how much oil hauling capacity will the Kaitens have?


Please be more specific. Do you mean the wooden hulled kaitens that were used to support the civilian economy or the rocket powered kaitens used to drop 'Yankee Go Home' leaflet bombs on Saipan?

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 25
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/9/2004 3:24:13 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		I love it! It's what this game needs more of, ahistorical inaccuracies.

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Post #: 26
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/9/2004 4:18:27 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn
It's the same mindset that you see in suicide bombers in the middle east today, or at least similar.


A 14-year-old girl at a slumber party could offer more in-depth analysis than this.

Did you stop to think of the cultural differences? The different eras? The different circumstances?

Suicide bombers do not confine their activities to the Middle East. They strike only Israel or other "infidel" nations there. They are tools of religious zealots bent on turning belief into power through wanton destruction of innocent life (whether zealotry is minority or mainstream in 21st century Islam is a question not to be debated in this small discussion).

Japanese who served as suicide weapons in late World War II were tools of a state that usurped self-pride and, in its death throes, sacrificed lives of its own innocent people in one last, pathetic attempt to stem the tide in hope of some sort of negotiated settlement after a misguided, ultimately weak, and failed, attempt at conquest.

Then, we faced the desperation of defeat. Now, we face Death glorying in the flower of victory.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Damien Thorn)
Post #: 27
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/28/2004 11:44:03 PM   
Dunedain

 

Posts: 224
Joined: 4/4/2000
Status: offline 		The Japanese warrior code of self-sacrifice allowed for such things as the kamikaze and kaiten pilots.
But do not compare them in any way to these muslim terrorist scum bags of today. The kamikaze
and kaiten pilots were attacking *military* targets. These terrorist nuts just go around mass murdering civilians
in their private little war to try to force us all convert to islam or die.

Two completely different things.

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 28
RE: planes on japanese subs+2 more questions - 4/29/2004 1:02:12 AM   
decourcy

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 12/17/2002
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Actually Damien Thorn is much closer to correct than Pasternaki
or Dunedain.
Your inane remarks about Islam just show your ignorance.

I won't even go into 9/11 but since 1981 how many Islamic terrorist attacks have occured within the USA?
Is the curve going higher or lower towards today? Or staying the same?
Which religious group has launched the most domestic (USA) terrorist attacks since 1981?

The answers would be:
1. Not many
2. Going way down. All terrorism was long before the Gestapo, i mean Homeland Security.
3. Judaism. yes, believe it or not. You probably get your news from a large news program or one of the big East or West coast papers. Guess what, they will not mention these things because they are owned and operated by Jews.

Next, How many Islamic suicide bombers since 1989 have blown up Israeli school children? 1

How many Israeli suicide bombers have blown up Palestinian children? 10

Interesting huh? Bet you didn't know about that....

Every religion is full of zealots. India's government today is essentially Hindu fundimentalist, Israel is Jewish fundimentalist, the USA is essentially Southern Baptist fundementalist.

For those of you going 'hey, I am a southern Baptist, we aren't like that!' well, the Southern Baptists are losing droves of members because the leadership is scaring many members. Such life time members as Jimmy Carter has left them.

Sorry about all that but ignorant, racist comments just burn my cheese and international relations is what i do for a living.

Michael

_____________________________

Tae Kwon Leep is the Wine of Purity
not the Vinegar of Hostility.

(in reply to Dunedain)
Post #: 29
yikes.... - 4/29/2004 1:07:22 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

The answers would be:


4. How long before Vic da Moderator makes an appearance?

Now might be a time for cooler heads to prevail and get back on-topic.

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(in reply to decourcy)
Post #: 30
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