Polish tank ratings

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Polish tank ratings - 11/13/2001 2:13:00 AM

SoleSurvivor

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Joined: 7/13/2001
From: Germany
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We usually get the impression Polish tanks would only be crap. Games like Panzer General and all these war movies and books strengthen this impressions. But one should not forget that the primary tank in the german forces was the Pz II when Poland was attacked. A very weak design, compared to the later Pz III / IV. Now in SPWAW 5.01 (the updates don't work for some reason and I will order a mega campaign with 7.0 when it's out) using the original MatrixGames equipment file for the 5.01 I did an artillery duel with a row of Polish vehicles against a row of German/Czech. Distance 5 hexes. The game suggests the following: Ursus: can dish out enough to wreak havoc on Pz 35 and Pz II. Sometimes can handle a Pz IV or Pz III. Usually the Ursus is taken out with the first critical hit by anything. TP7 "dw" : can dish out a bit more, is considerably better armored. Usually takes some time to get the crew to abandon it or to let it explode. Pz II: Under armored. Flak and light tanks eat these for breakfast. Can dish out against ursus, can't effectively do **** to the TP7 (is taken out long before that) Pz III: eats the Ursus at lunch if it hits it. Can take quite some hits but is taken out by very weak weapons when it is hit from the right angle. Often gets suspension trouble. Pz IV: heavily depends on hitting. If it hits it ususally deoes damage or takes the enemy out. Ursus is no real match, I could take out three TP7 in a row. If it doesn't hit it shows that it is quite armored. As the Pz III it usually gets a damaged suspension and would be out of combat in a real situation. It generally hits harder than the Pz III but it tends to hit less often.
Now I wonder how much this results has to do with the actual tanks. Is this data base ****ed up or do we usually get the wrong picture of the Polish tank forces?

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- 11/13/2001 6:39:00 AM

asgrrr

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Sounds about right. The 7TP was better than most german tanks, and could compete (if not quite evenly) with Pz 3-4.

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- 11/13/2001 7:58:00 AM

john g

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Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
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quote:

Originally posted by SoleSurvivor:
We usually get the impression Polish tanks would only be crap. Now I wonder how much this results has to do with the actual tanks. Is this data base ****ed up or do we usually get the wrong picture of the Polish tank forces?

If you take tanks 1vs1 the one that rules early war is the Matilda II. There just weren't enough of them and they were not used correctly. Note what I said above, there weren't enough of them and they weren't used correctly. Try your sim with a battalion of German tanks taking on a platoon of Polish, after the Polish are destroyed, reinforce the Poles with another platoon. Repeat until you run out of Polish tanks. The Germans clued into the fact that the more tanks you have firing the less losses you will take. Early war German armor was used together, they didn't split up to be defeated in detail like other countries did. It's not the weapons, it is how you use them that makes the differance.
thanks, John.

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- 11/13/2001 9:06:00 PM

Charles2222

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SoleSurvivor: I can't remember if there's a profound difference between the Polish tanks in V5.01 and V6.1, but in 6.1 there's little match, though a PZIIC is still generally lacking. Try the same thing from a greater distance, say 20-30 hexes and you will find a poorer Polish performance. As a general german strategy, which I used, you would engage them with the PZIVCs, PZIIIEs, and PZ38s at greater than 20 range, while you'd let the PZIIICs sit hidden, then when the enemy closed to 15 hexes or closer you open up with the PZIICs. If the Pole fires at the PZIICs, he's playing slightly follishly, because the others reap much greater damage when firing. It seems that before V6.1 came out I used to have a LOT more trouble with Polish armor than I do now, but I don't know if it's because there's maybe less armor on the Polish tanks, or the Poles when played by the AI aren't selecting very many tanks, or a combination of both. One thing that is also making the struggle easier form the German perspective is that the 37L46 is firing with improved penetration from V5.01. Even so, against Polish stuff, the PZIVC is often better, because it's shell is twice the size of the other guns, hence it ends up destroying what it hits at a far greater ratio. The AP rounds of the PZIVC are pretty accurate, it's just when it's forced to use the HE stuff that it gets fairly difficult to hit.

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- 11/13/2001 9:12:00 PM

Larry Holt

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Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
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quote:

Originally posted by john g:

It's not the weapons, it is how you use them that makes the differance.
thanks, John.

Absolutely!! The Germans would bring up ATGs behind their armor. If their tanks ran into trouble, they could fall back until their ATGs attrited the enemy then resume.

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- 11/14/2001 1:27:00 AM

SoleSurvivor

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Thank you for your interesting answers.

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- 11/14/2001 1:37:00 AM

murx

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Besides the way tanks were used by Axis enemies/those that had to fight them comes training. I would say the German army/soldier was better trained.
Esp. with the 'career' every German male had to take (or at least most of them took). 1. Age 13-16, Hitler Jugend - though this was a youth organisation it clearly focused on military/paramilitary training.
2. Age 17-21, 2 years 'Arbeitsdienst', even though it focused on labour (building roads, drying marshland and such things) it had strict military like rules.
3. One year Military service at least until they were attached to a 'combat unit' at the front; a long 'recruit status'. I guess no other nation focused so strong on military training of every male. murx

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- 11/14/2001 1:45:00 AM

SoleSurvivor

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Correct me if i'm wrong, I thought the RAD was a kind of work program like today's ABM.

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