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RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest?

 
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RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 12:03:10 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Results of night action

Japanese TF commanded by Komatsu 67/84
Ship day/night sys/flood/fire
Kongo 73/71 sunk
Haruna 67/67 65/38/15
Nagato 68/74 sunk
Yamato 65/74 33/7/15
Musashi 65/66 3/0/3


USN TF commanded by Stubble 70/71
S Dakota 68/73 0/0/0
Indiana 67/65 0/0/0
Alabama 72/72 0/0/0
Iowa 74/68 sunk
N Jersey 65/70 71/33/25

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Post #: 31
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 12:03:19 AM   
Pier5

 

Posts: 141
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From: Portsmouth, Virginia
Status: offline 		I didn't suggest that two salvo's would produce a blazing wreck. I said assuming that it didn't, the Iowa would simply turn stern-to and open the range. My real point was that fire control solution on a target coming straight on with no zig-zag is a very simple radar solution.

Pier5

(in reply to brisd)
Post #: 32
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 12:06:46 AM   
Pier5

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: Portsmouth, Virginia
Status: offline 		Nonsense! Gimme that editor

Pier5

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Post #: 33
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 12:11:50 AM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline 		I concurr with Brisd, Where did this notion that the IJA had superior fire controll. They may have had good optics but they did NOT have superior rangefinders or fire control. The USN had high powered fully automated gyro-scopic servo mechanisms that allowed for continuous aim.

That being said 100% system damaged before registering a hit is the definition of hyperbole. Why the assumption of an envitable decisive encounter at all. I would expect giving the nature of naval battle that at least 50% of the time it would end up a draw or otherwise indecisive. The other 50% I would give the edge to the Iowa by virtue of its superior; fire control, speed, Radar, and AP shells. But that is not to say the superior ship always win. There are always mitagating factors. For example at Savo the 5 Allied CAs were superior to 4 out of the 5 IJN CAs and we all know how that turned out.

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Post #: 34
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 12:15:15 AM   
mdiehl

 

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Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		Definitely somehing wrong there. With that US lineup the damage should be pretty one-sided against the IJN force. You've got 5 USN BBs any one of which is easily capable of sinking Yamato, facing a TF that includes two BBs that can't penetrate any of the US BBs at any range (Kongo and Haruna) and one BB that has a very inferior 16" main battery (Nagato). If that is post mid-1943, the US should be getting about twice the results seen in Mogami's aar.

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Post #: 35
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 12:21:34 AM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		mdiehl,
3 of the US BBs don't have any damage... Thats pretty one-sided. You need to come back from the Allied fanboy precipice man.

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Post #: 36
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 12:23:30 AM   
Tiornu

 

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Status: offline 		The conclusion of the postwar NTM was that Japanese FC was good, though not quite the equal of USN systems. Yamato has those giant rangefinders which might serve to get on target quickly, but this could only serve to offset the US radar advantage. At great range and in limited visibility, the US would have the FC advantage.
It is very difficult to fire by radar at a target directly approaching because of radar's lesser spotting ability; keeping the correct deflection would be tough, and if you're not dead on, your entire salvo is off-target.
One thing the USN could count on is its RPC.

(in reply to TIMJOT)
Post #: 37
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 12:27:02 AM   
Tiornu

 

Posts: 1126
Joined: 4/1/2004
Status: offline 		Just looking at the designs, the Iowas are competitive with the Yamatos, but the old Japanese BB are well below the new US ships. Nagato deserves respect, but the Kongos are even more out of their league than they would have been in a WWI battleline.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 38
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 12:27:29 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Yamato versus both New Jersey and Iowa

Yamato 18/4/11 (sys/flood/fire)

N Jersey 39/19/13
Iowa 25/0/3

Of course all the damage from a battle is not over before the fires are out. USN DC is better so they suffer less after battle damage from fires. Japanese ships can be destroyed by fire even when the fire level the turn after the battle does not seem that high.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 5/11/2004 5:32:19 PM >

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Post #: 39
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 12:31:55 AM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

3 of the US BBs don't have any damage... Thats pretty one-sided. You need to come back from the Allied fanboy precipice man.


I don't think I'm on the precipice but I'll step back. Given the incapability of the Kongos or Nagato of offering even compelling resistence to the US 16" shell, and their poor internal (within the citidel) compartmentation, I think we should see much more damage to all the Japanese ships, with several of the Kongos blowing up a la the RN CB line at Jutland, Hood, or the real Yamato (which was doomed almost from the get go from a 1000 pound bomb hit to her secondary magazine).

Mogami seems to keep getting odd results that substantially favor Yamato so I do not think I'm in error.

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Post #: 40
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 12:39:44 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		In the first test the Kongo did explode after a 16in hit.

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Post #: 41
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 12:41:38 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		You guys kill me. How in the world can you draw conclusions from one test? It was never my intention to start a debate, my point was about the tutorial and how easy it will be for all of you to set up and run your own tests.

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Post #: 42
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 12:43:41 AM   
Bobthehatchit


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From: GREAT BRITAIN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

In the first test the Kongo did explode after a 16in hit.


What range were they engaging at?

Does the game take advantage of the US radar advantage? and allow then to engage at max range?

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Just my 2 pence worth.
I might not be right.
Hell I am probaby wrong.
But thats my opinion for what its worth!

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Post #: 43
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 12:55:04 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
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quote:

Does the game take advantage of the US radar advantage? and allow then to engage at max range?


Both sides have some form of radar. It really depends on whether you catch them napping or not. Radar and Sighting both are affected by crew skill. Send a green Iowa up against a skilled anything and it's going to make a pretty atoll somewhere.

(in reply to Bobthehatchit)
Post #: 44
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 12:57:25 AM   
sven6345789

 

Posts: 1050
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Sandviken, Sweden
Status: offline 		there was a game by SSI called great war at sea or something like that with two scenarios, one for the atlantic, one for the pacific with time period up to 1943. There was an editor in that game. Just for fun i set up the us against the japanese battleships and british against the germans (including CA's since otherwise, there wouldn't have been that many german ships around). The results were devestating for both sides. Half of the BB's were sunk, with the other half heavily damaged. just plain brutal.

Anyone in this thread thought about Hood vs. Bismarck. Hey, if that one wouldn't have happened, and I would say "oh, well, the bismarck could have taken the Hood down in a few minutes, even if the ships in company are Prince of Wales (BB!!!) and Prinz Eugen (CA!!!)", somebody (I am talking about YOU, mdiehl) would certainly come up with some formulas to point out "sorry, cannot happen"!!! UUPS, did happen, oh well, the sea was to rough, eh the captain of the hood had a hangover, eh no wait, yes spionage and sabotage... etc. etc. etc.
JESUS CHRIST, I have seen "strange threads" before, but this one beats them all.
THanks to Mr. Frag and Mogami for making this thread fun to read for at least a short period of time.


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Bougainville, November 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. It rained today.

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Post #: 45
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 1:02:36 AM   
Bobthehatchit


Posts: 1478
Joined: 4/27/2003
From: GREAT BRITAIN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Does the game take advantage of the US radar advantage? and allow then to engage at max range?


Both sides have some form of radar. It really depends on whether you catch them napping or not. Radar and Sighting both are affected by crew skill. Send a green Iowa up against a skilled anything and it's going to make a pretty atoll somewhere.


I apprecaite that.

What i meant was will the game allow a Us surface group to sit at max range and hammer on a IJN unit using radar and staying out of visual range?

_____________________________

"Look at yours before laughing at mine". Garfield 1984.

Wanted: ISDII Low millage in Imperial gray.


Just my 2 pence worth.
I might not be right.
Hell I am probaby wrong.
But thats my opinion for what its worth!

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 46
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 1:05:40 AM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		Several tests, now, Kid, and they seem to be coming up with more or less the same problem.

Sven#etc -

The same tables that suggest that Yamato is outgunned and outclassed by Iowa also show why Prinz Eugen and Bismarck can destroy Hood while holding a malfy Prince of Wales at bay.

If one has contempt for details and reasons solely by emotion, one is unlikely to ever understand why things happen. If one has no grasp of probability, one is likely to evoke stochastic equilibrium in the form of "luck" as the determinant factor.

quote:

Both sides have some form of radar.


To be sure. However, Japanese radar should not matter once contact is made in most circumstances. It was not capable of the same level of accuracy as Japanese optical ranging, except in cases where the target was wholly obscured. It wasn't remotely comparable to US radar of the time. (I recognize that you probably did imply that it was).

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 5/11/2004 11:08:16 PM >

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 47
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 1:06:18 AM   
Tiornu

 

Posts: 1126
Joined: 4/1/2004
Status: offline 		Nagato certainly can present compelling resistance to a 16in shell. Her magazines have side protection that is arguably better than Yamato's. I don't understand the reference to poor internal compartmentation.
If I were handicapping a hypothetical fight pitting PoW and Hood against Bismarck and PE, I would definitely favor the British. But that's why they "play the game."

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 48
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 1:09:56 AM   
sven6345789

 

Posts: 1050
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Sandviken, Sweden
Status: offline 		if you say so....

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Bougainville, November 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. It rained today.

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Post #: 49
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 1:14:07 AM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
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From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		"What i meant was will the game allow a Us surface group to sit at max range and hammer on a IJN unit using radar and staying out of visual range? "

As mentioned above by Tiornu :

"The conclusion of the postwar NTM was that Japanese FC was good, though not quite the equal of USN systems. Yamato has those giant rangefinders which might serve to get on target quickly, but this could only serve to offset the US radar advantage. At great range and in limited visibility, the US would have the FC advantage.
It is very difficult to fire by radar at a target directly approaching because of radar's lesser spotting ability; keeping the correct deflection would be tough, and if you're not dead on, your entire salvo is off-target.
One thing the USN could count on is its RPC."

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 50
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 4:31:44 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
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From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

For interested parties, (Axis Fanboys need not bother since facts will not be relevant to them) see the BB comparison on the website that is dedicated to honoring the Imperial Japanese Navy. I refer you to:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm


From the said web site:

"It should be noted right off the bat that just because one ship or another ends up being proclaimed 'Best Whatever' doesn't necessarily mean that it would always win a fight against a lower rated ship." [...] "After all, as in all things having to do with combat, luck would have more than a little to do with determining the outcome in a clash between any of these steel monsters."


Iowa - faster, better FC vs. Yamato - bigger guns and better armor - I can see the gods of war tossing a coin...

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Yamato can only defeat a SoDak if Yamato closes the range before SoDak gets hits.


Or if the SoDak is rendered deaf, blind and impotent by some freaky short-circuit...

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Post #: 51
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 4:33:36 AM   
brisd


Posts: 614
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From: San Diego, CA
Status: offline 		Ultimately, this is an operational level game and one can only model naval combat to a certain degree of complexity before it becomes a tactical monster game that takes longer than actual war to play. As long as each ship is fairly represented and the combat results believable, I'll be happy. Should the Yamato beat the Iowa every time or vice versa? NO and the game is broke if that happens. Crew experience and surprise will be critical in any battle. I think we will see lots of sunk BB's, but they won't be from enemy BB's.

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Post #: 52
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 4:54:51 AM   
sven6345789

 

Posts: 1050
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From: Sandviken, Sweden
Status: offline 		mdiehl, could it be that you are taking these discussions much to serious?
after all, this is a GAME forum, and we are talking about a GAME.
If this wouldn't be a GAME, there would be no sense whatsoever playing the japanese, since they are doomed from the start. The only chance for victory they got is delaying the allied advance. The fall of Japan WILL come, no matter how well the Yamato does. It doesn't really matter, since this is a strategic level game.
The question out of curiosity how well Yamato does against Iowa is interesting, but results from one battle really don't decide the game!

Therefore, i won't take your insult seriously.

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Bougainville, November 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. It rained today.

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Post #: 53
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 7:09:12 AM   
Philwd

 

Posts: 285
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From: Arizona
Status: offline 		I am really surpised no one had quoted Victory at Sea by Dunnigan and Nofi. They devote almost 5 pages to this ultimate battleship battle(as they put it).

First comparisons are armor. The authors state the Iowa's armor was 25% better than an equivalent thickness on Yamato. So having said that here are the thicknesses:
Yamato Iowa
belt 16.1" 12.9"
deck 9" 8.1"
Barbettes 21.5" 17.3"
turret faces 25.6" 19.7"
conning tower 19.7" 17.5"
from table on page 147

So we can see that Iowa's armor was at least equivalent to much better than Yamato's.

Next main armament:

muzzle velocity 2559fps 2600fps
pen at
0 yards 34" 32.6"
20000 yards 20.6" 20"
30000 yards 14.7 14.97
rpm 1 2

So at the most likely encounter range ie 20-25000 yards penetration is near equivalent. I say most likely since the longest known hit by a BB was by Warspite putting a round into Cesare at 26000 yards. Looking back at the armor table it appears both ships can be penetrated by the other at 25000 yards. Yamato has longer range but it would be of little use.

Iowa's deeper beam made for a more stable gun platform. The FC made gunnery better. The author's conclusion was a squadron of Iowas would PROBABLY have defeated a like number of Yamatos. Emphasis mine since we all know anything can and will happen in combat. ie S Dak's electrical short.

So while I agree the most likely outcome between two equally experienced crews(not convinced Iowa's was as experienced) would be a heavily damaged Yamato and a damaged Iowa there are so many factors that play into it that I wouldn't expect much more than a 50/50 maybe 60/40 split in Iowa's favor.

And no I don't know where the author's got their data from.

Quark

(in reply to sven6345789)
Post #: 54
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 8:49:22 AM   
Tiornu

 

Posts: 1126
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Status: offline 		The Dunnigan and Nofi book does not warrant a reference here.
First of all, they are way off about the armor quality. Japanese homogenous armor was somewhat inferior to US homogenous armor (about 12% in this context), but against the largest shells, Japanese face-hardened armor is BETTER than US armor.
Second, the armor stats they give are just ridiculous. Any comparison of belt protection must go into a good degree of detail to give any worthwhile understanding. For now, I'll say simply that Iowa's belt was 12.1in, not 12.9in. (Maybe they're including the backing plate as part of the belt.) The Iowa armor deck was a lamination totaling 6in (effectively about 5.6in). The Yamato deck was 9.1in on the sloped outer portion and 7.9in on the centerline. Iowa's faceplate is also a lamination.
The penetration figures are useless. Penetration of 34in...of what? I'm guessing the book is quoting USN figures which derive from the old Thmpson "F" formula, a system not even meant for use with face-hardened armor. Yamato's guns defeat 41.6in of US armor at the muzzle. Iowa's guns, whose new-gun velocity was 2500f/s, defeat 33.9in of Japanese armor at the muzzle. Iowa cannot defeat Yamato's belt at 25,000 yards, and while an improved shell entered service c1945, I doubt either one can effectively defeat the other's belt at that range. The belts are steeply inclined in both ships. Iowa cannot defeat Yamato's faceplates at any range.
Iowa does not have a deeper beam than Yamato; Yamato has both more beam and more draft. Yamato's guns had a minimum firing cycle of 30 seconds, which is about the same as Iowa's.

(in reply to Philwd)
Post #: 55
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 9:41:46 AM   
fabertong


Posts: 4546
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From: Bristol, England, U.K.
Status: offline 		I was wondering if anyone had run a test comparing both of these battleships with HMS Victory. Victory certainly has them outgunned, with 98 guns. Good experienced crew as well. Just a thought......

(in reply to Tiornu)
Post #: 56
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 10:41:02 AM   
Akos Gergely

 

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Status: offline 		I think there are some people who take the difference between hyper-super dreadnoghts too seriously. Basically each of the modern, fast battleships (i.e. hyper-super dreadnoughts) have the capabilty to defeat each other. That means a King George V can sink Yamato or a Vittorio Veneto can sink an Iowa.

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Post #: 57
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 11:31:22 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: csatahajos

I think there are some people who take the difference between hyper-super dreadnoghts too seriously. Basically each of the modern, fast battleships (i.e. hyper-super dreadnoughts) have the capabilty to defeat each other. That means a King George V can sink Yamato or a Vittorio Veneto can sink an Iowa.

I think you make an excellent point. At the ranges invollved in this type of confrontation,
getting a hit on the opposition might be a matter of skill, training, balistics, and fire con-
trol---but exactly what was hit and the damage done is almost totally luck. Some ships
will have a better chance against others, but freek occurances seem to have been just
as important in the outcomes.

(in reply to Akos Gergely)
Post #: 58
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 2:53:31 PM   
barbarrossa


Posts: 359
Joined: 3/25/2004
From: Shangri-La
Status: offline 		Well since I served as a main battery fire controlman on BB-64 '87-'89, I'll jump into the fray.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

Yamato was Iowa's superior in a gun battle. If the circumstances were heavily skewed to favor Iowa, then the American would have a fairly even chance to win.


Sorry, to disagree with you here. The MK 38 GFCS radar (Mk 12) could track targets out to 80,000 yds. While we couldn't fire at that range we could work up a solution on that big old Yam thang and close range before Yam would've been able to even know what might have been tracking her, provided she had radar detection equipment. And you could have both Fwd Plot and Aft Plot working on solutions.

Yam was limited to line of sight, Iowa class could see over the horizon using the radar, provided the guys in Spot 1 could hold the bearing well. Jump into range let loose with one turret, check your fall of shot, adjust fire, let loose another, and keep repeating the process till you have the range then let loose. Yamato is all the time wondering where the heck all this is coming from, the only way she would is if the engagement took place at night then she could see muzzle flash in the sky.

So you're just flat wrong. It does come down to tactical engagement range and command ship handling, and fire control. But that by definition is what surface gun fights are. And the FC gear on an Iowa class gives them the inherent advantage of which you speak.

Radar makes optics obsolecent and that's just facts. I dont care what your armor or gun caliber is. If I can put my ordinance on target at a greater range than you can even engage. You're dead.

< Message edited by barbarrossa -- 5/12/2004 12:57:04 PM >

(in reply to Tiornu)
Post #: 59
RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? - 5/12/2004 3:38:54 PM   
SamRo

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 3/23/2002
From: UK
Status: offline 		Case point HMS HOOD......

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Post #: 60
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