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RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 12:03:47 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Cheers I guess thats at least one Pac war habit ill need to break or someone will wipe out Bur Corps and take Delhi afore I can do anything about it .

I am not used to Rangoon as a bad location to try and hold.

I assume the old build an airfield in the Andaman Islands and heavily garrison it with LBA to punish any japanese carriers coming into Indian Ocean is a similar deathtrap for allied forces in WITP....

Another favoured tactic to be unlearned in a hurry

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 331
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 12:14:43 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		that strategy wont work either.....the island (if its the one i think your refferring too), is too close to the Burmese coast and would be plastered (and/or invaded) within a short period. Even trying to stage a seaplane base there can be risky.

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Post #: 332
RE: SRA - 5/13/2004 12:29:35 AM   
Pascal_slith


Posts: 1651
Joined: 8/20/2003
From: back in Commiefornia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Naw, Noumea is a piece of pie waiting for you. Nothing there but some mine fields.

Send in 6th Base (for moving Nells in quick!), 61st & 53rd Naval Guard units.

180,000 fuel sitting there and the Brass Ring! Kicking South Pacific HQ off the base into nowhere means that none of the units attached to South Pacific can get stuff because it is out of supply rotting on a little trail! No upgrades for all those air groups

It is one of my evil tactics.



WHOAA. Noumea has 180'000 fuel points sitting there? This was the situation already on Dec. 7th? This is all wrong if it is. There is much too much fuel there unless you moved it there since the beginning of the game. I have the actual historical figures of fuel available for in the South Pacific during this time (they come from Adm. Worrell Carter's book Beans, Bullets and Oil). What is one fuel supply point worth in tons of fuel? I could go and calculate this but does someone have the figure offhand?

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So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(


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Post #: 333
RE: SRA - 5/13/2004 12:52:08 AM   
Pascal_slith


Posts: 1651
Joined: 8/20/2003
From: back in Commiefornia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Naw, Noumea is a piece of pie waiting for you. Nothing there but some mine fields.

Send in 6th Base (for moving Nells in quick!), 61st & 53rd Naval Guard units.

180,000 fuel sitting there and the Brass Ring! Kicking South Pacific HQ off the base into nowhere means that none of the units attached to South Pacific can get stuff because it is out of supply rotting on a little trail! No upgrades for all those air groups

It is one of my evil tactics.


180'000 fuel points?! You must be kidding. This fuel was there already on Dec. 7th? Or was it brought there later? If this was there originally, there is a grave mistake in the allotment by the developers. There was never this much fuel available in the South Pacific at the beginning of the war. Figures are available in Adm. Worrell Carter's Beans, Bullets and Oil. I'll look them up.

A fuel supply point is worth how many barrels or tons (long or short?) of fuel?

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So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(


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Post #: 334
RE: SRA - 5/13/2004 12:52:21 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		Yup, they are pretty much stuffed.......Luskan's advance down the west coast was faster than I expected, and this unit is now cut off with no choices left open to them. Fatigue is up around 70%

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Post #: 335
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 12:59:05 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

Those screenshots raise an interesting possibility. Could Raver evacuate any troops from the PI? there appears to still be a channel of Allied-controlled ocean. For that matter, maybe some reinforcements could arrive. How is the air-to-air combat doing in that sector?


If I had the PP available then yes I could try to either evacuate or even reinforce, but you have to remeber that the IJN rule both the air and the waves. Any TF trying to sneak in would be mince meat very quickly. So far all the IJ players that I have come up against in this Scen have always kept a good Surface TF close and ready, and there always seems to be at least one CVE around ready to course mayhem.

The short of it is that the PI is not able to be reinforced and as much as Dug-out doug screams for more troops the number crunchers in Washington got it right in their understanding that the PI was lost and that it would have been a waste of men and ships to even try.

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Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Post #: 336
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 1:01:23 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		What is the starting OOB in the PI for the USAAF and is it possible to evacuate any of the airgroups or do the PP's come to slowly to contemplate it ?

Thanks for the info

< Message edited by Andy Mac -- 5/12/2004 11:03:55 PM >

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 337
RE: SRA - 5/13/2004 1:08:39 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pascal

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Naw, Noumea is a piece of pie waiting for you. Nothing there but some mine fields.

Send in 6th Base (for moving Nells in quick!), 61st & 53rd Naval Guard units.

180,000 fuel sitting there and the Brass Ring! Kicking South Pacific HQ off the base into nowhere means that none of the units attached to South Pacific can get stuff because it is out of supply rotting on a little trail! No upgrades for all those air groups

It is one of my evil tactics.


180'000 fuel points?! You must be kidding. This fuel was there already on Dec. 7th? Or was it brought there later? If this was there originally, there is a grave mistake in the allotment by the developers. There was never this much fuel available in the South Pacific at the beginning of the war. Figures are available in Adm. Worrell Carter's Beans, Bullets and Oil. I'll look them up.

A fuel supply point is worth how many barrels or tons (long or short?) of fuel?


Yes, I think it's one ton. Please let us know what the right total would be. Thanks.

(in reply to Pascal_slith)
Post #: 338
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 1:10:30 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
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From: Melb. Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

OK if reinforcing phillipines is going to be risky how much would a Japanese PBEM player have to mess up to allow an Allied player to hold onto

1. Singapore

or

2. Rangoon

Beyond historic fall dates and if so how dislocating will it be to the Japanese Economy.

i.e. can you evacuate Aussie 9th to Rangoon will that allow Rangoon to hold until 7th Armoured turns up ?

and if Allied player can make Rangoon a tough pill to swallow is it practical as IJA to bypass it.

<Apologies if been asked before new to forum> :)



Singapore will ALWAYS fall (and from the IJN players perspective...it must). Even if the invasions were botched and less troops were used, it will still fall, only later rather than sooner.

Rangoon is an interesting one, in an early game against Luskan I emptied all of India of it's troops and rushed them to Rangoon, but we never got to play it out as a new build of the game meant that we had to restart. But considering that by the time the Jap player gets to Rangoon his fatigue level will be up it is a possiblity to hold out for sometime...............but you can see the flaw in this tactic......you leave India bare and wide open.


Not possible to slip the Aussies north to Rangoon either.....it is too far to march them and the IJN lands a lot of troops to the north.....right across your planned escape route Andy.

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Post #: 339
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 1:17:03 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		Yes Andy it is possible to pull air groups out.......I actually do that for the B-17 groups and even the P-40s if they have not been too badly mauled..............send them to Oz were they will be of more use. Yes you have enough PPs to do that at the start of the game. I am at work so I don't have the OOB in front of me atm.

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Post #: 340
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 1:23:32 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Thanks Raverdave I guess Ill need to try it out when the game comes out should be an interesting experiment to try and hold onto Rangoon and lose Delhi or Karachi

I figured that Singapore was a lost cause but im guessing that holding onto it as a base beyond mid Feb starts to cause major problems for a Japanese player's economy i.e. an allied base across the least time route to the DEI although I guess with the quality of Allied fighters at this stage the Japanese Airforce can close Singapore airstrip at will by mid Feb so holding onto it is of limited value.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 341
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 1:31:53 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		A tactic that I do use is to pull all the Aussie units out of Singapore as fast as possible for their use in the defence of Australia. ( I have deep political reasons for this). I have tried this twice now and have been 100% sucessful once and 50% sucessful the other time, the APs got bombed and I lost a whole brigade at sea when the ships sank

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Post #: 342
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 1:36:25 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		It appears a good tactic (although I obviously havnt played the game yet) as an experienced battle ready formation can tilt the balance in many fights .

How flexible is the usage of this formation after you pull it out i.e. can it be allocated to SWPac or SOPAC HQ for use in PM or securing New Caledonia or does it have to go to ANZAC.

Also how many PP does it cost to Evac out of Malaya ?

< Message edited by Andy Mac -- 5/12/2004 11:38:12 PM >

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 343
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 1:42:03 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Right next to Suva is another base Nadi. Located there is a NZ Bde of 170 assault points. When I am allied the first order I give to a ground unit is for this Bde to march to Suva.

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Post #: 344
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 1:44:09 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		I ussually send them strait to Perth and then decide wher they will be placed. So they are attached to Australia Command.........once again, I am at work so I cannot tell you how much it costs in PP to pull them out, but seem to remember that I had little or no points left afterwards. IIRC it costs about 2000 PP to move a division from one HQ to another.....but I am just running off my memory here and THAT is always a dangerous thing to rely on

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Post #: 345
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 3:30:15 AM   
jrcar

 

Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Seymour, Australia
Status: offline 		Ref Fiji, Suva and Nadi.

While Suva is the capital of Fiji Nadi/Lautoka is the industrial heart with the main port and airfield. Nadi and Lautoka is the heart of the sugar cane industry in Fiji and so had resonable infrastructure to support the loading of shipping.

Before Suva could be used the Ameriacns blasted a hole in the reef to widen and deapen it.

Fiji is split geographically into two zones, the grass land zone and the rainforest zone. The grassland zone is caused by rainshadow effects and runs like a fence line. The grassland zone is the "food bowl" especially from an export perspective and is dominated by the Indian poulation. The rainforest area is mostly Fijian and subsitance (some cattle and pigs).

During WW22 the main defences were at Momi (defending the good passages into Lautoka/Nadi) and in Suva. As a kid I played in and visited both.

Nadi/Lautoka is the only part of Fiji worth taking from a logistics perspective. Good port, flat areas for airfields, road and rail infrastructure and supplies. Suva has a small port (needs improvement) an isolated airfield (Rewa) and poor infrastructure.

But Suva is a nicer place to live :)

Cheers

Rob

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 346
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 3:34:34 AM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

[Singapore will ALWAYS fall (and from the IJN players perspective...it must). Even if the invasions were botched and less troops were used, it will still fall, only later rather than sooner.


Why should that be the case? I can understand it if you said that the IJN player MUST always endevour to MAKE it fall, but if should not always be a faite accompli especially if the IJN player tries to use less troops or takes his sweet time or otherwise botch the invasion somehow. In game terms I think I know why Singapore's fate is seemingly written in stone but IMHO your statement does not accurately describe the historic situation.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 347
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 4:00:35 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

[Singapore will ALWAYS fall (and from the IJN players perspective...it must). Even if the invasions were botched and less troops were used, it will still fall, only later rather than sooner.


Why should that be the case? I can understand it if you said that the IJN player MUST always endevour to MAKE it fall, but if should not always be a faite accompli especially if the IJN player tries to use less troops or takes his sweet time or otherwise botch the invasion somehow. In game terms I think I know why Singapore's fate is seemingly written in stone but IMHO your statement does not accurately describe the historic situation.


Simply because even if the IJN player stuffs up his first invasion then he will still be able to amass, at a later date, a force big enough that cannot resisted. Even with a botched invasion, the prospect of reinforcing Singapore is poor.

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Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Post #: 348
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 4:20:59 AM   
Luskan

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline 		Nadi is probably next, but is a bit of a sideshow atm lets face it (although one of my picket subs spotted a surface combat force racing south from pearl!).

I have decided to try and up the ante, even though bad weather in china cost me lots and lots fo troops last turn (attacking in bad weather isn't a real good idea), and also foiled my rangoon snatch. Fortunately I'll just sit there for a whlie and amass Prep points and do it properly.

In malaya, annoyed that Raver is hinting he rescued the two big aussie units - the most important objective after taking singapore was to kill or drown those units (one to derby, one to darwin or perth or wyndham and suddenly the Oz coast isn't nearly as easy to steal).

Occaisionally they get used in the DEI - but the result would probably be the same.

Operations Phlegm, Pus and Snot are all still on standby, and I'm not sure how much longer I can keep those resources doing nothing. especially with a dramatically slow PI invasion, and many more tempting targets in the SRA. Palembang would be an excellent place to strike and secure some oil, as would tarakan (balikpapan seems a bit crowded atm).

Mop up operations in the dozens of little siland bases aronud the pi continue with my naval garrison forces storming ashore on a base or two every turn. All undefended so far.

My KB - cvs are all resting and refitting (although they didn't loose any aircraft since pearl) while my Prong 1 group has refuelled again, and is returning to their station (Raver is staying put in his ports and I'm not game enough to try another port attack just yet).

Darwin or perth? The question begs doesn't it? To take either, means that, like at Suva, he just can't afford to ignore it. It would be a suicide mission for any japs troops to try (because once they'd taken the place, the aussies would march day and night for months to wipe them out).

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Post #: 349
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 4:22:43 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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quote:

Why should that be the case? I can understand it if you said that the IJN player MUST always endevour to MAKE it fall, but if should not always be a faite accompli especially if the IJN player tries to use less troops or takes his sweet time or otherwise botch the invasion somehow. In game terms I think I know why Singapore's fate is seemingly written in stone but IMHO your statement does not accurately describe the historic situation.


The Brits simply do not have enough troops to prevent the fall.

A little math for you:

Japan divisions are 450+ assault. 3+ divisions are available.

All the Brits = 991 assault total but they are spread out.

(in reply to TIMJOT)
Post #: 350
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 4:25:38 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I never send fewer then 4 div (sorry Mike) I did the math and want 2-1

< Message edited by Mogami -- 5/12/2004 9:27:20 PM >

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Post #: 351
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 4:30:28 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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quote:

Hi, I never send fewer then 4 div (sorry Mike) I did the math and want 2-1


And you wonder *why* I run? I know against you it is pointless to stay and die in place!

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 352
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 6:35:00 AM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave


Simply because even if the IJN player stuffs up his first invasion then he will still be able to amass, at a later date, a force big enough that cannot resisted. Even with a botched invasion, the prospect of reinforcing Singapore is poor.


I thought as much, that very well may be true for the game but it doesnt jive historically. Why exactly is the prospect for reinforceing Singapore so poor? Particularly if invaded at a later date or less force is applied? Historically Singapore was not very hard to reinforce at all.

I have a suspicion it has something to do with the seemingly over effectiveness of LBA.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 353
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 6:39:36 AM   
TIMJOT

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

[The Brits simply do not have enough troops to prevent the fall.

A little math for you:

Japan divisions are 450+ assault. 3+ divisions are available.

All the Brits = 991 assault total but they are spread out.



Frag, Thanks for the reply. Is that 991 on the whole Map or is that just for Malaya? I know the 18th Div. arrives in early January. What about the 44th and 45th Indian Bgds? The 17th Indian Div? The 7th Arm. Bgd.?

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 354
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 6:53:00 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave


Simply because even if the IJN player stuffs up his first invasion then he will still be able to amass, at a later date, a force big enough that cannot resisted. Even with a botched invasion, the prospect of reinforcing Singapore is poor.


I thought as much, that very well may be true for the game but it doesnt jive historically. Why exactly is the prospect for reinforceing Singapore so poor? Particularly if invaded at a later date or less force is applied? Historically Singapore was not very hard to reinforce at all.

I have a suspicion it has something to do with the seemingly over effectiveness of LBA.


Are you being even remotely serious here?

Singapore??? Easy to reinforce??? From where??? With what???

Rangoon is tough enough to try and hold onto, forget about Singapore. I swear you need to look at a map. Singapore is at the very bottom, Rangoon at the very top ... the black circle is the range of a Nell, the red circle the extended range of a Nell.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mr.Frag -- 5/12/2004 11:55:27 PM >

(in reply to TIMJOT)
Post #: 355
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 7:00:37 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave


Simply because even if the IJN player stuffs up his first invasion then he will still be able to amass, at a later date, a force big enough that cannot resisted. Even with a botched invasion, the prospect of reinforcing Singapore is poor.


I thought as much, that very well may be true for the game but it doesnt jive historically. Why exactly is the prospect for reinforceing Singapore so poor? Particularly if invaded at a later date or less force is applied? Historically Singapore was not very hard to reinforce at all.

I have a suspicion it has something to do with the seemingly over effectiveness of LBA.


Well I have little trouble in sneaking out troops from Singapore, but I would really hate to get a TF full of troops caught by a CV TF sailing into the Straits of Malaca. The IJN player has very good search aircraft based near and so it can be easy to detect shipping coming in, then simply despatch a CV. The IJN player rules the waves east, south and north of Malaya, and if ha can be bothered sailing into the Indian ocean, he would also rule those waves as well.

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Post #: 356
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 7:10:15 AM   
Luskan

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline 		It isn't impossible to load up loads of troops of india, and get them into kuala lumpur (assuming you have spent the pp points for them, and packed about 30 fighters into kuala lumpur before hand).

A good jap player will bomb you, but most of your troops would get ashore (singapore might be easier, but is a few hexes closer to the enemy that are probably based in brunei by the time your transports arrive). Of course, you will loose many transports doing this - and loose even more transports when the IJN arrives and catched you unlaoding, but by then you can have some extra troops on malaya.

The problem is that it took so long to ship them in, that a: kuala lumpur might have fallen already, b: the jap player is just going to let you starve because supplies are already running low and c: laugh because malaya is well and truly within his zone of control, while india is empty and asking for the taking.

Is even worse when an allied player tried to send the hermes, revenge, exeter etc. in with the transports to give them some cover. The result (apart from the hermes being so slow and the revenge with such a small fuel tank slowing them down further) is that your transports arrive later (worse) and you pit the hermes up against some oscars, sallys, nells and betties. How many allied fanboys here think that the Hermes should survive??????

Best use for the allied indian ocean forces is to stay put and defend - the jap player can never ignore you, but won't risk going so far away from the SRA for months and months. By then, you'll have lots of fighters there to mix it up if he comes after your ships.

Those indian units are much better used at Rangoon or Moulmein if you're fast. You can hold the jap division (but probably not if the jap general sent both) down there for a while with a very long supply line and attrite.

My aims when I play the allies:
1. slow the taking of the SRA down as much as possible/make the jap bleed early on. If I did indeed hit the Taiyo hard in my game vs Mog - leaving my units in place in malaya has already paid off (serves him right for landing in such a daring manner!).
2. Allied naval units will not survive in the SRA at the beginning. You need to evac them to a safe port (away from the jap betties at kendari, brunei and davao). Then you can condense your forces into a nice surface combat group or two and have a bit of a smack the way raver did. Much more effective than trying to stand and fight in little isolated tfs in jap air cover. I tried to stand and fight vs mogami and he's been btich slapping my transports and surface combatants left right and centre.
3. Stuff troops and planes and ships into the bases from sydney to noumea to suva to pearl to protect that flank at all costs.
4. Maybe - just maybe, you can get a few extras into PNG before the **** hits the fan. Whoever posted about the japs preferring the us attacking on a narrow front was probably right.

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 357
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 7:15:23 AM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline 		Frag,

Actually I am being very serious in regards to the REAL situation historically.

Historically there were a total of 10 reinforcement convoys sent to Singapore. How many did the Japanese stop from getting through? ZERO!

Of those convoys. How many ships did they manage to sink? ONE! The AP Empress of Asia

What did they bring in? One full Division, 2 full Bgds, 3 AA Regts, equiv of 3 fighter squadrons, and about another 2 Bgds worth of replacements. Not to mention tons of supplies and munitions.

Dont know about how it is in the game, but I can guess from the fact that I have yet see Singapore last much past mid January in any of the AARs.

Doesnt it seem a more than a little odd that what is considered one of the fastest campaigns in history (One that even took the Japs by surprise) consistently take less than half the time of the almost unbelievable historic pace?

< Message edited by TIMJOT -- 5/13/2004 5:20:15 AM >

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 358
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 7:18:19 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Not one of the AAR's have troops coming into Singapore. Most of them have the troops leaving. This is what speeds up the fall of Singapore. I'm holding as the Allies but we are not posting the AAR from that game. (AdmDadman is Japan)

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to TIMJOT)
Post #: 359
RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 7:25:11 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		And I will also point out that I still own Singapore !








..........or at least still do as of the 8th of Jan'42 I am confident of holding it until at least the 15th of Jn, then it is all in the lap of the Gods.

< Message edited by Raverdave -- 5/13/2004 2:28:56 PM >

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 360
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