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German campaign - 11/30/2001 2:33:00 AM   
SoleSurvivor

 

Posts: 1493
Joined: 7/13/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		In the (regular) German campaign, 1939, what setup do you prefer? Do you buy cheap units and upgrade them later to get a large core force or do you buy a strong mix right from the start?

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"Wenn sie jetzt ganz unverhohlen
wieder Nazilieder johlen
über Juden Witze machen
über Menschenrechte lachen
wenn sie dann in lauten Tönen
saufend ihrer Dummheit frönen
denn am Deutschen hinterm Tresen
muss nun mal die Welt genesen
dann steh auf u
Post #: 1
- 11/30/2001 3:54:00 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Use the search feature and look for this SPWaW thread:The best core force for a long campaign? I started this one on 6/27/01, and got some excellent replies. Hope this helps.

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Post #: 2
- 11/30/2001 4:09:00 AM   
john g

 

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by SoleSurvivor:
In the (regular) German campaign, 1939, what setup do you prefer? Do you buy cheap units and upgrade them later to get a large core force or do you buy a strong mix right from the start?
Since you don't have a fixed number of points to spend (you can set any point value in prefs that you want) there is absolutely no reason to buy junk to upgrade later. If you have 1000 points of junk you will have 1000 pts of ai to fight against. If instead you buy 2500 points of good stuff you will have 2500 points of ai to fight against, but you will not be fighting with junk. Figure out how many units you want then set the pref to allow you to buy that much.
thanks, John.

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Post #: 3
- 11/30/2001 4:18:00 AM   
Larry Holt

 

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline 		If there is one fault with SPWaW, its that it models mobile armored warfare but the maps and battles often get clogged up with so many units that you can't play mobile warefare. For this reason, I prefer a smaller, cheaper core. Also it adds historical flavor and tactical excitement to have to fight with less than first rate equipment.

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Post #: 4
- 11/30/2001 5:49:00 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Larry made a good point. If you want the flavor of say, North Africa in 1941-42, have relatively small (say, maybe two companies) opponents battling on a large map. You can recreate the almost open-sea naval battle feel of the early Cyrenaica offensive, with much open space and room to manuever. The key is to determine what types of battles you want to fight, and then tailor the force/space ratio to meet your needs.

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Post #: 5
- 11/30/2001 6:21:00 AM   
Mikimoto

 

Posts: 511
Joined: 11/6/2000
From: Barcelona, Catalunya
Status: offline 		Hello Sole. If you begin the campaingn in 1939 your core force will be a lot cheaper than a year or two later. Then, you can buy the core you want without having to fight against giant masses of enemies. this way you can gain some experience before the horde arrives... If you want to play with combined arms core force, you must buy few units, three companies as maximum. As some comrades said, if you choose a lot of units, forget maneuver. But if you want to fight the war with a core force composed of infantry, go for a full batallion. All of this in my humble opinion, of course.

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Post #: 6
- 12/2/2001 7:42:00 PM   
wulfir


Posts: 3091
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I have fought a long campaign starting in 1943 as the Krauts using a company of Fallschirmjäger and some support; a FO, a engineer platoon, a StuGIV section, Pak40 section, 120mm mortar platoon, some scouts and a sniper. That was fun, a bit more difficult than fighting with large numbers of Panthers. Lately I have begun a new German campaign set in France 1944 and I’m using a core force of evil Waffen SS troops. I based the core on the German formation attacking the Ramalle bridge in SPR. Just hope I don’t have to face that Captain Miller! That would mean good night for my two Tigers. Tried once to fight a similar campaign with a small French force of company size and a couple of Somua tanks, but the Germans walked all over my poor troops. I couldn’t hold the objectives. In all these cases build points were irrelevant. The small size of the core and the few upgrades led to a very large amount of surplus points. [ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: Wulfir ]



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Post #: 7
- 12/5/2001 7:25:00 PM   
Ballan

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 9/8/2000
From: Northern Ireland
Status: offline 		Sorry Wulfir, re your "I’m using a core force of evil Waffen SS troops" comment, I checked the OOB but could nt find those troops listed. I thought such silly ill-educated comments were banned from this forum, just stick to the factual military capabilites without the political good side V bad side baggage

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Post #: 8
- 12/5/2001 8:12:00 PM   
NeoWhiteWolf

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 5/15/2001
From: USA
Status: offline 		Ballan ill agree with you.... The Waffen by 1944 were mostly Polish Replacements and any German W-SS that survived...and on the fact that some Waffen were involved with anti-jewish incidents mostly they were to busy concentrating on fighting the red army and those damn americans . Most of the Waffen SS were not really followers of the SS movement and the Gustapo...There were more like what we consider Army Rangers and Marine Recon...the were a Fighting SF...like the Greun Teuffels (FJ Green Devils) and so forth were just like SF we have today...\ And Sole Survivor i started my campaign with a lot of Rifle Teams, about 10 or 20 Light tanks(Mostly Ib with the mounted machine gun eat squads up) and 5 or 6 CS Tanks (The 75mm will help)a few AA guns i prefer 37's (Read my other post about them)1 or 2 paks...and engineer if you like offense a lot...other than that go creative and learn strenghts of your units versus the enemy...if Light tanks get womped by the russians throw a heavy and so forth examples...And remeber with the WW2 campaign you can morph units(Change after a battle)so upgrading to SS Rifle Teams then Spec Ops..(who i found to be perfect defenders and assualters)and eventually WSS...the 7.92x35 StG44 is a good weapon, bettert than Mauser so choose wisely before you go into a battle and go conservative....there is no law about being conservative all the time it just takes longer. I take my time in maps...with Inf and Tanks and HT(Half-Tracks) together the enemy has less chance of assault on tank. So have fun and if you wanna do something fun try a WW2 Caimpagn as a really group of Soldiers like the SS 3rd Panzer division and choose your units close to a division or battaliion... [ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: Richard WhiteWolf ]



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Post #: 9
- 12/6/2001 4:49:00 PM   
ruxius

 

Posts: 909
Joined: 5/5/2000
From: ITALY
Status: offline 		I would like also some large battles enabling encirclement of huge mass of Polish infantry..
Then infantry ,air ,artillery will finish the job...

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Post #: 10
- 12/7/2001 12:52:00 AM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		How about Totenkopf in 40? How about the pacification in the Pripet? Did you know that Das Reich participated in a slaughter of Jews in Minsk? I think the SS are a very interesting lot (I've been working on a campaign following 3rd SS through Kursk for ages), but don't forget what they did. Much of their initial cadre was formed from early concentration camp guards. They participated in the early phases of the holocost. At least they aren't like the SD or anything excessively horrible like that, but people can argue that as bad enough. The waffen SS units had a higher incidence of atrocities than other units in WW2. That may not make them 'evil' but saying so isn't strictly incorrect. The danger of revisionist history is taking it for granted. At least LAH and DR were among the lighter offenders (not that they didn't do plenty of wrong), and they certainly kicked a lot of ass... but they are the exception. Not the norm. Hell, Theodore Eicke wrote the regulations for concentration camp prisoners. (He's the guy they named the 5th SS PzGrenadier Rgt after... the head of 3rd SST.) Tomo

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Post #: 11
- 12/7/2001 7:06:00 AM   
wulfir


Posts: 3091
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Ballan:
Sorry Wulfir, re your "I’m using a core force of evil Waffen SS troops" comment, I checked the OOB but could nt find those troops listed. I thought such silly ill-educated comments were banned from this forum, just stick to the factual military capabilites without the political good side V bad side baggage
Let me clarify, Ballan.
If you have trouble finding the SS troops do check again. I used the adjective “evil” to put some colour in the text because I felt it did sound more aggressive then say “my merry Waffen SS troops”. Also have you seen the movie SPR (Saving Private Ryan)? If so, did you get the impression that the SS men were the good guys or the bad guys(= the evil ones)?
It was not my intention to include a political message but I think I will have to now. Factual military capabilities of the Nazi-German Waffen SS?
A few units were first rate, some were good and some were absolute crap. They fought for the regime of Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party and in the end all their efforts at the front and "elsewhere" served this regime. Doing this they wore the SS runes on their uniforms, insignia that along with the Swastika is remembered as signs of pure evil. Soldaten wie andere auch? I think not. Should we forget or ignore the unpleasant parts of the Waffen SS and only focus on the cool, camouflage uniforms, their fighting spirit or their first rate equipment? I think not. Personally I feel the best picture is always the full picture.

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Post #: 12
- 12/7/2001 7:50:00 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline 		I find any comparison between nazi's and US Military an insult to the Brave and Honorable Soldiers that fought in WW2 ... the constant request by nazi appologists to narrow the focus of military conduct to disregard 80% of what the nazi SS and regular army did to civilian populations just continues to show that they still have no regard for the truth or concept of honor.

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Post #: 13
- 12/7/2001 3:46:00 PM   
frank1970


Posts: 1678
Joined: 9/1/2000
From: Bayern
Status: offline 		Blah Blah blah, and again Ammo´s memo to the honor.

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Post #: 14
- 12/7/2001 4:23:00 PM   
fguillemart

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 9/27/2001
From: France
Status: offline 		Does anyone remember a small town in France called Oradour sur Glane, which received a " friendly visit " from Das Reich in 1944 ?
The entire population was burnt alive in the church, with only 2 or 3 survivors out of several hundred people.
Does anyone remember the GIs taken prisoners during operation Wacht am Rhein in december 1944 and executed by Peiper and co ?
I personnally like playing w/the german forces, but no one should ever forget the atrocities committed by SS units.
War is a horrible thing, and some guys always try to make it more horrible than it already is.
I think SS did belong to these guys.
This has nothing to do with politics, but with history.

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Post #: 15
- 12/7/2001 4:30:00 PM   
Christopher

 

Posts: 370
Joined: 4/9/2001
From: Verden, Lower Saxony, Germany
Status: offline 		I usually avoid playing SS forces.

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Post #: 16
- 12/7/2001 4:55:00 PM   
Mikimoto

 

Posts: 511
Joined: 11/6/2000
From: Barcelona, Catalunya
Status: offline 		Hello. You must remember also that all foreign troops fighting for Germany were enlisted in the Waffen-SS... not in the Heer. The only foreign unit pertaining to the Heer was the Spanish 250th Division, the "Blue Division". All the rest going to the Waffen-SS.
SS troops fall in two categories then: Elite German units (or from germanic origin as Don Germans, for example) and Foreigners serving Germany (most of them volunteers). And yes, most Waffen SS troops played dark, genocide, anti-partisan and repression wars.

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Post #: 17
- 12/7/2001 8:46:00 PM   
NeoWhiteWolf

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 5/15/2001
From: USA
Status: offline 		I read somewhere that it took a man of prestige or true skill to join the SS....now a man of prestige isnt going to the front line the skilled will...And I have met survivors of the wra who fought in the Waffen at a Military event ....THey most of the times didnt care about trivial matters such as Jewish annihilation... there job was to fight...if they were ordered to kill 10000 civilians they would do it...they werent brainwashhed...they were true soildiers who fought and followed orders....its called discipline without emotion.
Im sorry if you some of you ppl cant get through your heads that most soldiers werent "Evil"....more like 95% of them fought....Hey lets get technical now..lets bring up the US Marines in the pacific...on okinawa they killed 1000's of civilians because theyw ere told to fight...most had sticks and rocks or maybe a outching fork...Or the French who killed 100's of German Sypmethisers....WW2 brought out the bad side out of everyone...You cant say they were evil...the SS officers at the top maybe were doing something morrally wrong but those bellow may have not had a choice... I hate these kinda rants [ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: Richard WhiteWolf ]



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Post #: 18
- 12/7/2001 9:01:00 PM   
Mikimoto

 

Posts: 511
Joined: 11/6/2000
From: Barcelona, Catalunya
Status: offline 		Most Waffen-SS troops (of non german ethnic origin) were employed in dirty tasks in the rearguard and/or anti-partisan warfare, they weren't front line units. As example of infamous reknown were some Ucrainian Waffen-ss units in Poland/Varsaw, or russian ethnic Waffen-ss in North Italy, Muslim Bosnian and Croatians in the Balkans... whose bloody brutality is well recordered and remembered.

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Post #: 19
- 12/7/2001 9:13:00 PM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline 		The attrocities comitted by the German Army and the German people were not Trivial, nor were they anti-jewish "Incidents" they were attrocities. Such statements that attempt to minimize and dismiss such horrors are themselves outragious. The claim that Germans did not care, I find to be both damning and true. The Lesson to be learned from WW2 is that you do not forsake your humanity and swear personal allegiance to dictators posing as false Gods ,and that you cannot forsake your personal Honor without folks noticing, and cannot escape the personal consequences of your personal conduct. It still seems some folks cannot grasp that they are responsible for what they do, and that "Just Following Orders" is not a defense.

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Post #: 20
- 12/8/2001 12:24:00 PM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		Richard, you have to be kidding. I know what you meant by saying "trivial matters such as Jewish annihilation." ,but the line comes off a bit sociopathic. Many atrocities against humanity were committed by the German and Soviet armies in WW2. The Germans committed more than the Soviets, and Soviets probably more than the remainder planet put together (during ww2). For argument's sake, when I say atrocity let's disclude the crime of passion version of war atrocity. These being events stimulated by the stress of combat, like Malmedy. Let's just keep this to systematic, planned murder. Certainly, no one is arguing that the people in command are legitimately guilty of terrible crimes against humanity. But people like to defend the individual who's part of the gang, but not really a part of the evil. I think it's easy to let yourself be a part of something that's doing wrong and not do something about it. To varying degrees we've probably each experienced a bit of it ourselves. That makes perfect sense. However, to say that that person doesn't deserve blame is crap. Being a part of an organization that conducts crimes against mankind like the SS did, makes you guilty. Plain, and simple. That's why being an accomplice to murder is a very serious crime. Not quite as bad a crime, but really bad nonetheless. I'm sure there were many silent conscientious dissenters among the rank and file SS soldiers. These peopoe, while being courageous in warfare, were moral cowards. It's not easy to fight the system, but in the same way that one kills, one should die for the right cause. You can't tell me that the average SS soldier didn't know what evil their Fuhrer was conducting. Richard, you may not like this rant, but you are strictly incorrect in your beliefs here. I agree that soldiers have it hard and that there are many horrible things that happen in war as a result of the fatigue and stress of combat. What the SS is truly guilty of, has nothing to do with any of that. The waffen SS units did a lot of intentional, bloody, wet civilian killing. Not as much as other 'departments' of the SS, but more than enough to accurately be remembered as 'evil'. The marines killed a thousand civilians you say? Do have any idea how many the SS killed? Tomo

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Post #: 21
- 12/8/2001 5:46:00 PM   
NeoWhiteWolf

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 5/15/2001
From: USA
Status: offline 		Tombstone....i dint mean it to come off as i personally think of it as Trivial...I mean we can never forget what happen..i meant it to mean most soldiers werent bothered with the knowledge of it....My neighbor lived less than 10 miles form the Death camp outside Munich...it wasnt until after the war when most of here family and those in her area found out about...I think its a shamre a country does such a thing but i think its worse when half the country either didnt know the exact details or ignored it.... And tombstone killing civilians in any manor is wrong....if it be 10000 or 1000000. Hell The US arreested Japannese Amercians and threw them into interment camps because we felt they could become spies when most had been in American for over 3 or 4 generations.... In the saddest sense you can dread the past all you want but things like this happen all too often and this one just got the ppls eye more than the others...We as Human beings should look, study, and know so when it could happen in our country we can stand up and stop the cycle of history.

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Post #: 22
- 12/8/2001 7:50:00 PM   
SoleSurvivor

 

Posts: 1493
Joined: 7/13/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		So what tombstone? Do you want to add up numbers?

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"Wenn sie jetzt ganz unverhohlen
wieder Nazilieder johlen
über Juden Witze machen
über Menschenrechte lachen
wenn sie dann in lauten Tönen
saufend ihrer Dummheit frönen
denn am Deutschen hinterm Tresen
muss nun mal die Welt genesen
dann steh auf u

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Post #: 23
- 12/8/2001 9:27:00 PM   
BjörnR

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 8/24/2000
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Don't forget that the victors write history.
It takes many generations (a hundred years or more) to get rid of that effect when judging what really happened.

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Post #: 24
- 12/9/2001 12:37:00 AM   
NeoWhiteWolf

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 5/15/2001
From: USA
Status: offline 		I think in end....we all realize what happen was wrong but.....the ppl who did it thought it was the right thing to do at the time....they now live with the grim reminder that man is the cruelist creature in existence...Only man kills for an idea and slays those who stand against our ideas...I think we must rise above our faults and become better

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Post #: 25
- 12/9/2001 3:37:00 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Amen, Richard. Well Said.

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Post #: 26
- 12/9/2001 7:38:00 AM   
Kuad

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 11/23/2001
Status: offline 		Having known a number of Germans who were alive at the time of the war, I think what Richard expressed is the truth. At the time, on a very small number of people had an idea of what was going on. What evidence did leak out was dismissed as nonsense. Your nation is at war and nobody could be that much of a monster! Germany has essentially spent the last 50 years bidding for readmission to the human race because once they understood what happened, they were horrified. Oh, and this is wildly off-topic for a message board like this.

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Post #: 27
- 12/9/2001 1:09:00 PM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		Let's hit these responses in order. Richard, I agree with your last post. I'm sorry if I came off harsh or anything. I actually contain roughly equal rage for most historical acts of genocide. Although killing civilians is wrong, those forces throughout history who made a policy out of it are worse, and more guilty. The US threw Japanese Americans into camps, (I have relatives that were there) true. We did not torture, overwork, rape, murder them. The difference is astronomical. SoleSurvivor, I don't want to add the numbers up. I was merely using them as a part of my argumentation with Richard's post. BjornR, the victors do write the history... I agree, but given the context of your post do you mean to say that reports of wartime atrocities committed by SS organizations are false? How long will it take us to understand what really happened? Are the documented atrocities fabricated? Maybe 6 million Jews weren't killed. Maybe the Germans were really just 'nice' to the Russian civilians, maybe the Russians didn't rape and murder a 100,000 people upon entering Germany in 44/45? Even though the victors write the history, there are always losers trying to re-write it. Back to Richard, again I agree with your post. Man is the cruelest creature, but some of our cruelty is worse than others, and its hard to do worse than genocide. Kuad, were not talking about civilian awareness here. We're talking about members of the waffen SS. What I can't believe is the resistance to the fact that some of the worst things that can happen happened in WW2. Lots of hese were committed by the Germans and Russians(and Japanese). By defending the people, you defend the despicable acts themselves. I'm not trying to say that the SS were the worst, I'm saying that they are in the club. They crossed a line that puts them into a category or organizations that would have left us better off to never have existed. They take humanity away from the rest us by association with our species. It's never innappropriate to express disdain for the forces in history that shame our planet. Especially on a forum that focuses on wargames. This place is just as much about history as it is game. Tomo

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Post #: 28
- 12/9/2001 2:32:00 PM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline 		The Primary Charge at Nuremburg was the charge of consiracy to commit war. The German Nation ( and the Japanese is similar ways), Deliberately and with malice a forethought, conspired to violate international treaties to inculde the terms of surrender from WW1, however harsh they may have been. That is where the basic crime occured. The German people as a whole knew that they were violating Treaties by rearming and gearing for war.. The Death Camps and the Slave Labor, in one guise or another, was known by most Germans. By taking the most extreme example only, the extermination camps, and focusing only on that, Germans try and plead ignorance. The Germans knew of the ethnic cleansing, the deportations, and the planed policy of enslaving those peoples the Nazi's considered subhuman, and as a people the exulted inand supported those crimes. The German People as a nation knew they were commiting War, and killing civilians, and bombing cities, and they rejoiced. There was no valid cause for the War itself but for being an instrument of the racial policy of the Nazi's. The Death Camps themselves where but an extreme example of the overall crime. The Crime was the unprovoked sneak attack of Nations at Peace, In Violation of Treaties entered into for the sole purpose of deciet, and with the expressed reason of pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing and genocide. This, the German people as a whole knew. It was the Publically stated policy of the Nazi Party, and was embraced, abieted, and endorsed by the German People. What part of this don't folks get?

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"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

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Post #: 29
- 12/9/2001 6:05:00 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Greetings to all my Matrix friends. I try to stay out of these threads that begin with one subject and then a fire fight over a word or phrase erupts. Any one who has read "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" will recall what effect 'harmless' words or saying aloud a careless phrase had there. Is the world a better place today because of the defeat of the axis? I think so. Could the western allies have intervened or taken a harder stance against the axis nations in the years preceding the war? I think so. Had the western allies given the same support to the German attempt at democracy after WW1 they gave the Nazi's that government may have remained and the horrible history that followed might have been prevented.
It was no secret outside of Germany what was taking place before the war. Western response was to provide finance to rebuild and rearm. While imposing restrictions on persons wanting to leave Germany. What message did this send? What nation in WW2 did not make a target of civilians? What horrifies most people is the 'factory' methods used by the axis (and soviets) against their own citizens. In a body count the USAAF did a respectable job on non combatants, The US Marines made a point of not taking POW's. The Canadians and the SS had a thing about not taking prisoners of each other. In the East you had to be a mental case to surrender and expect decent treatment. The Balkans were just as bloody in WW2 as they had been before and remain today. But all this aside the Western Allies never committed to paper any plan to collect, transport and eliminate people. We remain skeptical of nationals who claim they did not know it was going on (since we knew before the war it was happening but even then the scale amazed us after the war) I would find it much more persuading to hear "We knew, but were helpless" Since there was no support out side of Germany for an anti Nazi party before the war. Indeed the reverse is clearly history. Non Germans admired and praised what was taking place. It was only when their country became involved in the war that Hitler became a monster.
Remember the victims were German nationals or from countries/race/faiths that no one cared about.
The Chinese, Poles, Jews, etc., etc., had been mistreated for long before WW2 without any out rage. Many remain today in the same sort of world without any country going to war in their defense. The human race as a whole has to accept responabilty for WW2 and what happened. Blaming any group of people exclusively is wrong. It took the support of people outside Germany to create/install/maintain Hitler. What was occurring within Japan was clear from 1931 on but the US and Western allies considered them Weak nearsighted yellow monkey people. And then acted suprised when Japan made race an issue. (read the Honolulu Star dated DEC 4, 1941) Stalin had been on a rampage against his people for several years.
It is the nearness in time that propels WW2 to the top of the charts in outrages not the body counts. That and the perfection modern machines brought with it when applied by an efficient people. This horror causes most people to try to make a specific nation/person responsible without recognizing it required the consent (implied by lack of opposition) of the world. Just as it remains today,
"Evil" (there's the word that set this off)
Can only thrive when the strong leave the weak unguarded, Or pretend they don't matter. If you wait for these evil's to get to you before you get outraged then I think you should practice your outrage cause sooner or later it will.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to SoleSurvivor)
Post #: 30
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