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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/24/2004 11:57:43 PM   
Von Rom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames

I have a question for the guys that have seen it. I have been interested in teh movie since i saw the previews. But someone told me that there was a bunch of flipping around while swordfighting that seemed more for the matrix than ancient combat? is there any of that?


Personally, I wouldn't worry about it.

In legend and in history, Achilles was a great warrior, having never been defeated in battle.

In the movie, Achilles (Pitt) uses great dexterity, speed and cunning to move around much larger foes. It seemed to be natural and not gimmicky to me. In other words, you won't see a computer animated Pitt bouncing around ala Spiderman

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 12:02:34 AM   
Von Rom


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ORIGINAL: Belisarius

An Alexander the Great movie?

That should prove interesting. If there's anyone who would have appeared semi-godlike to his contemporaries, it would be Alexander. All his conquests aside, it's the character transformation that is really interesting. From cunningly using his skills and the heritage from Phillip, uniting Hellas and then ending the Persian threat once and for all, achieving a demi-god status in the process...yikes! Hope they don't lose it in cgi-rendered mega-battles. Although the battle of Gaugamela in 331 b.c. would be nice. It'd make the siege of Gondor look like child's play.


I'm also looking forward to the film. Apparently, Stone has wanted to make this film for six years now. So, if it's a special project for him, then I am expecting a good film.

CGi isn't too bad if used sparingly. But I agree that I would rather see big batttles as depicted realistically in Sparatcus and Braveheart, than the CGI in the LoTR.

Cheers!

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 12:06:55 AM   
Von Rom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

I thought it was one of the worst movies released in the the last 12 months. Muchos hyphe, was bored like hell .


Goes to show how subjective some things scan be, such as food, books, etc. . .


Definetly , it´s not that bad but I was pretty disapointed.


I guess for me, personally, there have been so few movies about ancient Greece (especially in the past 30 years) that I was more than happy to watch (and revel in) the atmosphere of the setting of this movie. I can honestly say that it didn't disappoint me at all

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 6:24:08 AM   
NefariousKoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

Now I'm getting in the mood to play some ancient wargames.

I hope in the near future Matrix has an ancient wargame in the plans. Perhaps a game that is flexible enough to cover all ancient warfare for Rome and earlier. A big, colourful strategic map with perhaps tactical turn-based combat. . .


I'm not waiting that long. Spartan comes out on the shelves here in the states in approx. 2 days. It's as good as mine since I have a gamestop gift card sitting around asking me for a wargame.

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 11:46:55 AM   
Tomus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames

I have a question for the guys that have seen it. I have been interested in teh movie since i saw the previews. But someone told me that there was a bunch of flipping around while swordfighting that seemed more for the matrix than ancient combat? is there any of that?



Actually the fighting is pretty good and feels relatively "Authentic" yes its jazzed up but thats what you would expect when hero fights hero but its grounded in reality. There is nothing that you couldn't do physically yourself.

What I missed were the serried ranks of Hopolites holding their shield wall and using their sarissa's. But I don't think that type of combat had been invented at the time of Troy,

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 12:39:50 PM   
Belisarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomus

quote:

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames

I have a question for the guys that have seen it. I have been interested in teh movie since i saw the previews. But someone told me that there was a bunch of flipping around while swordfighting that seemed more for the matrix than ancient combat? is there any of that?



Actually the fighting is pretty good and feels relatively "Authentic" yes its jazzed up but thats what you would expect when hero fights hero but its grounded in reality. There is nothing that you couldn't do physically yourself.

What I missed were the serried ranks of Hopolites holding their shield wall and using their sarissa's. But I don't think that type of combat had been invented at the time of Troy,


IIRC, the Hoplite phalanx with Sarissas came to be first 800 years later, around 400 b.c. and the Pelopponesian wars. Another thing to look forward to in an Alexander the Great movie.

I'm sure Rune has some input on this, if he's around...

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 2:04:07 PM   
Tomus

 

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You are right I think one of the main weapons at that time was the sling? Infantry combat was relatively limited??

I dunno its a good place to research I must admit.

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 2:41:49 PM   
Belisarius


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I think the shield and spear was the basic equipment for the infantry, along with the bow and arrow.

If I'm not completely mistaken, the clashes were more challenges between individual champions rather than whole formation. At least as it's depicted in the Iliad.

Since the phalanx formation, and thus the hoplites, weren't developed until the 8th century b.c., the Trojan wars (if they ever took place!) probably were individual fights in massed clashes. That would also explain why the champions were so important for the outcome, rather than the closed ranks of organized heavy infantry.

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 2:42:04 PM   
tiredoftryingnames


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Thanks for the info on the combat. I'll have to go see it now. That's why I asked. The person that saw it is of dubious movie review quality and they tend to exaggerate when they don't like something. Which is most of the time.

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 6:03:51 PM   
riverbravo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

I thought it was one of the worst movies released in the the last 12 months. Muchos hyphe, was bored like hell .


Not enough digital animation for ya bro?

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 6:14:00 PM   
Rune Iversen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomus

quote:

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames

I have a question for the guys that have seen it. I have been interested in teh movie since i saw the previews. But someone told me that there was a bunch of flipping around while swordfighting that seemed more for the matrix than ancient combat? is there any of that?



Actually the fighting is pretty good and feels relatively "Authentic" yes its jazzed up but thats what you would expect when hero fights hero but its grounded in reality. There is nothing that you couldn't do physically yourself.

What I missed were the serried ranks of Hopolites holding their shield wall and using their sarissa's. But I don't think that type of combat had been invented at the time of Troy,


IIRC, the Hoplite phalanx with Sarissas came to be first 800 years later, around 400 b.c. and the Pelopponesian wars. Another thing to look forward to in an Alexander the Great movie.

I'm sure Rune has some input on this, if he's around...


w00t!

The classical Hoplite Phalanx did not have Sarissas

< Message edited by Rune Iversen -- 5/25/2004 4:21:33 PM >


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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 6:21:17 PM   
Rune Iversen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomus

quote:

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames

I have a question for the guys that have seen it. I have been interested in teh movie since i saw the previews. But someone told me that there was a bunch of flipping around while swordfighting that seemed more for the matrix than ancient combat? is there any of that?



Actually the fighting is pretty good and feels relatively "Authentic" yes its jazzed up but thats what you would expect when hero fights hero but its grounded in reality. There is nothing that you couldn't do physically yourself.

What I missed were the serried ranks of Hopolites holding their shield wall and using their sarissa's. But I don't think that type of combat had been invented at the time of Troy,


Classical Hoplite battles are from the 8th century onwards. Troy is supposed to take place in the greek Bronze age, 400-500 years before.

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 6:22:10 PM   
Rune Iversen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

I think the shield and spear was the basic equipment for the infantry, along with the bow and arrow.

If I'm not completely mistaken, the clashes were more challenges between individual champions rather than whole formation. At least as it's depicted in the Iliad.

Since the phalanx formation, and thus the hoplites, weren't developed until the 8th century b.c., the Trojan wars (if they ever took place!) probably were individual fights in massed clashes. That would also explain why the champions were so important for the outcome, rather than the closed ranks of organized heavy infantry.


That´s why it´s called "Homeric Warfare" in the historical treatises on the period

< Message edited by Rune Iversen -- 5/25/2004 4:19:48 PM >


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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 6:23:17 PM   
Rune Iversen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomus

You are right I think one of the main weapons at that time was the sling? Infantry combat was relatively limited??

I dunno its a good place to research I must admit.


Hard to say. But if the finds of weapons are to be taken as indicative, close combat played a large role.

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 6:38:30 PM   
Von Rom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

Now I'm getting in the mood to play some ancient wargames.

I hope in the near future Matrix has an ancient wargame in the plans. Perhaps a game that is flexible enough to cover all ancient warfare for Rome and earlier. A big, colourful strategic map with perhaps tactical turn-based combat. . .


I'm not waiting that long. Spartan comes out on the shelves here in the states in approx. 2 days. It's as good as mine since I have a gamestop gift card sitting around asking me for a wargame.


I heard the game was pretty good. I may look for it myself

Cheers!

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 6:42:54 PM   
Von Rom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

I think the shield and spear was the basic equipment for the infantry, along with the bow and arrow.

If I'm not completely mistaken, the clashes were more challenges between individual champions rather than whole formation. At least as it's depicted in the Iliad.

Since the phalanx formation, and thus the hoplites, weren't developed until the 8th century b.c., the Trojan wars (if they ever took place!) probably were individual fights in massed clashes. That would also explain why the champions were so important for the outcome, rather than the closed ranks of organized heavy infantry.


That´s why it´s called "Homeric Warfare" in the historical treatises on the period



Here's a full size replica of a Trojan helmet circa 1200 BC.

Great looking helment. To think all those helmets back then were hand made.



A Royal Corinthian Helmet:



Hellenic Armour page:

http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 6:54:11 PM   
Belisarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomus

quote:

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames

I have a question for the guys that have seen it. I have been interested in teh movie since i saw the previews. But someone told me that there was a bunch of flipping around while swordfighting that seemed more for the matrix than ancient combat? is there any of that?



Actually the fighting is pretty good and feels relatively "Authentic" yes its jazzed up but thats what you would expect when hero fights hero but its grounded in reality. There is nothing that you couldn't do physically yourself.

What I missed were the serried ranks of Hopolites holding their shield wall and using their sarissa's. But I don't think that type of combat had been invented at the time of Troy,


IIRC, the Hoplite phalanx with Sarissas came to be first 800 years later, around 400 b.c. and the Pelopponesian wars. Another thing to look forward to in an Alexander the Great movie.

I'm sure Rune has some input on this, if he's around...


w00t!

The classical Hoplite Phalanx did not have Sarissas


Hep, that's true. AFAIK, it's the General Ifikrates that introduced the sarissas around 392 b.c, and were introduced as standard infantry by Phillip of Macedon, the pezhetairoi. At least I think they had sarissas when organized into taxeis.

Anyway, they were in use during Alexander, but that's at least 400 years after the first hoplites were introduced.

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 7:08:22 PM   
Von Rom


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Here's a very interesting page describing Hoplite combat:

http://www.holycross.edu/departments/classics/dawhite/

Excerpt:

"Classical Greek warfare was the purest form of battle. The antithesis of modern day notions that favor stealth capability or covert guerilla tactics, Greek warfare displayed the honesty of two armies facing each other head on in broad daylight. The phalanx formation called for each man to trust his neighboring infantryman, often times a friend or relative. With a shield in his left hand and a spear in his right, each man depended on his fellow hoplite's shield for full body coverage. Battles were won and lost depending on the phalanx's ability to hold its formation. Lined shoulder to shoulder with approximately sixty-five pounds of armor, limited vision and hearing, a hoplite's crucial duties required little tactical skill, only to push forward and keep the line together. Outstanding valor rose from a man's ability to keep his nerve amidst such confusion and brutality. In a time when the outcome of battles rested on fellow soldiers’ trust for one another, an individual hoplite's reputation for strength and courage was his greatest asset in keeping his adjacent hoplites bound in a line. The nature of battle for the individual hoplite necessitated trust in one's fellow infantryman for personal and group survival, a tradition that resonates through the history of war, yet exemplified to its finest on the battlefield of Greek antiquity."



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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 7:16:10 PM   
Belisarius


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...and that's also what eventually made them so vulnerable to the Persian cavalry and their ranged weapons.

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 7:19:48 PM   
Rune Iversen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomus

quote:

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames

I have a question for the guys that have seen it. I have been interested in teh movie since i saw the previews. But someone told me that there was a bunch of flipping around while swordfighting that seemed more for the matrix than ancient combat? is there any of that?



Actually the fighting is pretty good and feels relatively "Authentic" yes its jazzed up but thats what you would expect when hero fights hero but its grounded in reality. There is nothing that you couldn't do physically yourself.

What I missed were the serried ranks of Hopolites holding their shield wall and using their sarissa's. But I don't think that type of combat had been invented at the time of Troy,


IIRC, the Hoplite phalanx with Sarissas came to be first 800 years later, around 400 b.c. and the Pelopponesian wars. Another thing to look forward to in an Alexander the Great movie.

I'm sure Rune has some input on this, if he's around...


w00t!

The classical Hoplite Phalanx did not have Sarissas


Hep, that's true. AFAIK, it's the General Ifikrates that introduced the sarissas around 392 b.c, and were introduced as standard infantry by Phillip of Macedon, the pezhetairoi. At least I think they had sarissas when organized into taxeis.

Anyway, they were in use during Alexander, but that's at least 400 years after the first hoplites were introduced.


Well, it was not just the Pezhetairoi (Foot Companions, the Royal Infantry Bodyguard) that was equipped that way, thought ehir equipment was probably better. Bet yeah, The Sarissa was peculiar to 4th century.

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 7:21:22 PM   
Rune Iversen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

...and that's also what eventually made them so vulnerable to the Persian cavalry and their ranged weapons.


Huh?

How so? The Hoplite Phalanx of the 5th and early 4th century won more battles than they lost against their Persian contemporaries.

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 7:24:05 PM   
Von Rom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

...and that's also what eventually made them so vulnerable to the Persian cavalry and their ranged weapons.


It also helps to explain, once a formation was broken, how the fleeing troops could be massacred. A single hoplite would not know what was going on a few yards away from him. It helps to explain what happened at Cannae as well.

Hard to imagine what it must have been like for those fighting in the first ranks.

Any game that will be done on the ancient battles will need to fully model the morale and cohesion of the ancient warriors.

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 8:09:14 PM   
mavraam


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I went to Troy with my 12 year old son with very low expectations because of the reviews and because my familiarity with the story (my father is a professor of ancient western civilization and and is also greek so I've had this stuff drummed into my head).

I was very pleasantly surprised. The story carried me from begining to end. They did a good mix of action and plot and the acting was first rate for this sort of movie. I even found the parts about man's struggle with mortality to have some (rare) depth for an action movie. The changes from the original work were annoying but only to the few who know and the fewer still who cared.

But what was really astonishing was the combination of the epic scale of the battles and great choreograpy of the individual close-up battles. This is the future of war movies to be sure. We now have the technology to show the great wars on the scale in which the occured.

Imagine a close up of a WWI soldier in the trenches that pans out and then does a flyover of the entire western front! It could now be done with this technology and capture the massive scale, futility and horrific loss of human life that occured in that war in a way that has never before been seen. What greater anti-war statement is there than the reality of war?

I think the movie was quite well done top to bottom and frankly I'm a little confused by some of the awfull reviews it received. I'm really begining to think that critics just hate Brad Pitt.

BTW, my son liked it even more than I did. I will definitely be buying the DVD.

I do agree that the weakest part was the end with Achilles and the girl. I just never felt there was that much between them for him to behave the way he did at the end. Minor quible.

I can't wait for Alexandar the Great. Possibly the greatest general of the ancient age in Western Civilization (Hannibal?).
Some amazing stories about how he used different, inventive techniques and psychology to overcome armies much larger than his.

I hope Oliver Stone doesn't try to make some political statement. I think he's one of the best directors, but he sometimes tries to inject too much of his own political views.

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 8:26:10 PM   
Rune Iversen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mavraam


I can't wait for Alexandar the Great. Possibly the greatest general of the ancient age in Western Civilization (Hannibal?).
Some amazing stories about how he used different, inventive techniques and psychology to overcome armies much larger than his.



Hannibal lost

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 8:35:31 PM   
Von Rom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mavraam

I went to Troy with my 12 year old son with very low expectations because of the reviews and because my familiarity with the story (my father is a professor of ancient western civilization and and is also greek so I've had this stuff drummed into my head).

I was very pleasantly surprised. The story carried me from begining to end. They did a good mix of action and plot and the acting was first rate for this sort of movie. I even found the parts about man's struggle with mortality to have some (rare) depth for an action movie. The changes from the original work were annoying but only to the few who know and the fewer still who cared.

But what was really astonishing was the combination of the epic scale of the battles and great choreograpy of the individual close-up battles. This is the future of war movies to be sure. We now have the technology to show the great wars on the scale in which the occured.

Imagine a close up of a WWI soldier in the trenches that pans out and then does a flyover of the entire western front! It could now be done with this technology and capture the massive scale, futility and horrific loss of human life that occured in that war in a way that has never before been seen. What greater anti-war statement is there than the reality of war?

I think the movie was quite well done top to bottom and frankly I'm a little confused by some of the awfull reviews it received. I'm really begining to think that critics just hate Brad Pitt.

BTW, my son liked it even more than I did. I will definitely be buying the DVD.

I do agree that the weakest part was the end with Achilles and the girl. I just never felt there was that much between them for him to behave the way he did at the end. Minor quible.

I can't wait for Alexandar the Great. Possibly the greatest general of the ancient age in Western Civilization (Hannibal?).
Some amazing stories about how he used different, inventive techniques and psychology to overcome armies much larger than his.

I hope Oliver Stone doesn't try to make some political statement. I think he's one of the best directors, but he sometimes tries to inject too much of his own political views.


heheh

What 12 year old would not revel in this movie

I think I was about 12 when I first saw the movie "The 300 Spartans". Well, I was hooked on ancient history since then. There is truly something noble and heroic looking in that hoplite armour.

After seeing the movie I, too, was confused by the bad reviews. Quite possibly due to the fact that this is a "guy's" movie: all (white) male actors; USA made; Brad Pitt; lots of fighting; etc. . .

I remember that Gladiator also got mixed reviews. But I really enjoyed that film.

I generally like Stone's films. Since Alexander is a special project for him, I'm hoping for a good movie.

< Message edited by Von Rom -- 5/25/2004 7:06:06 PM >


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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 8:46:31 PM   
Von Rom


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Hoplite Combat




Battle

Hoplites were organized in the phalanx as row upon row of men, typically about eight ranks deep, and stretching abreast for a quarter mile or more. The commanding general--the strategos--took position in the front rank, at the extreme right--the most exposed position in the entire army. Greek generals typically had short careers.

Prior to combat, the paen or battle hymn was sung, then the phalanx advanced upon its foe at a trot. The Spartan army was an exception; it saw the paen as needless bravado and was known for its slow, methodical pace, set by musician-boys who marched behind the line. The first four ranks of men marched with spears level, while the rear ranks kept their spears mostly vertical, where they provided an effective defense against missile weapons. The large shields on the left side of each soldier provided an incentive for everyone to snuggle up against the man on his right. This formed the wall of shields that was so crucial to the phalanx's effectiveness, but there was a definite trend for each army to drift noticeably to its right.

As the lines neared each other, both sides broke into a run. The challenge for the general was to maintain cohesion (and the shield wall) while still gaining enough momentum for the initial crash. When the armies did crash, among the literal rain of spear splinters as the spears shattered, the battle became a scrum of each army trying to push through the other's line. The forward ranks did what hacking and spearing they could, while the rear ranks drove the enemy forward by pressing their shields into the backs of the men in front of them. The pressure, the noise, the confusion, the gore at the front of the line were immense.


The Idea

The Greek phalanx was nearly unstoppable in its intended mode of combat: head-on, on straight, level ground, with adequate protection on the flanks. Hoplite battles frequently took place in long, straight valleys--so common in the Greek mainland--where the phalanx could occupy the entire width of the valley and thus protect its flanks and its rear. A single site would frequently be the location of battle after battle through the ages, its desirability as a battlefield undiminished.

Hoplite combat was centered around a single idea: that battle should be bloody, horrible, and decisive. This fit the needs of an agrarian society that could not spare its men to a professional army, but needed them back in time for harvest. Battles were short, and casualties were surprisingly low (proportionally to the combatants) in comparison with modern combat. Through most of their history, the ancient Greeks meant to keep wars short--even just a single battle--so that people could get back to their lives. If they frequently judged war to be necessary, it was still just a necessary evil.

http://qa.perl.org/phalanx/history.html

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 8:58:56 PM   
Von Rom


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For such a small nation, it's amazing what ancient Greece has given to us.

Even the tactics used by the Greeks at the Battle of Marathon seem to have been used by Hannibal at Cannae.

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/25/2004 9:19:31 PM   
Rune Iversen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

For such a small nation, it's amazing what ancient Greece has given to us.

Even the tactics used by the Greeks at the Battle of Marathon seem to have been used by Hannibal at Cannae.


Nothing suggests that the rout of the greek center at Marathon was intentional.

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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/26/2004 12:24:32 AM   
Belisarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

For such a small nation, it's amazing what ancient Greece has given to us.

Even the tactics used by the Greeks at the Battle of Marathon seem to have been used by Hannibal at Cannae.


Nothing suggests that the rout of the greek center at Marathon was intentional.


Probably more a natural effect of thinning out the centre so the Greek' position wouldn't be overflanked by the Persian formation. Advancing in line formation with the speed necessary to avoid the Persian arrows usually means the flanks advance quicker than the center. With the center rank maybe as little as 4 men deep, the strung out formation got gaps which the Persians used .

Was it Miltiades who was General that day?

Btw, in the phalanx formation, it was just the lead man who was really a hoplite, wasn't it? The 7 following him were his servants.

< Message edited by Belisarius -- 5/25/2004 11:26:32 PM >


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RE: The Movie Troy - 5/26/2004 12:36:36 AM   
Rune Iversen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

For such a small nation, it's amazing what ancient Greece has given to us.

Even the tactics used by the Greeks at the Battle of Marathon seem to have been used by Hannibal at Cannae.


Nothing suggests that the rout of the greek center at Marathon was intentional.


Probably more a natural effect of thinning out the centre so the Greek' position wouldn't be overflanked by the Persian formation. Advancing in line formation with the speed necessary to avoid the Persian arrows usually means the flanks advance quicker than the center. With the center rank maybe as little as 4 men deep, the strung out formation got gaps which the Persians used .

Was it Miltiades who was General that day?

Btw, in the phalanx formation, it was just the lead man who was really a hoplite, wasn't it? The 7 following him were his servants.


Yep, it was Miltiades, and no, nothing suggests that it weas only the lead men who were arrayed in Hoplkite gear. I think you are confusing it with Livys and Dion. Hals. description of the Servian army reforms of Rome.

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