FJ anti tank gun

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FJ anti tank gun - 12/2/2001 9:22:00 AM

jonypure

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From: Montana
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Im wondering why the FJ 28mm AT gun can't be loaded into the transport plans or gliders? Is there historical or technical reasons? Where is the best place to find a player for
PBEM or internet play? Is there somewhere that explains how to use the MilitaryGamer opponent finder? Thanks

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- 12/2/2001 9:34:00 AM

Redleg

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One good place to find opponents is to join the Combat Command league.

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- 12/2/2001 9:52:00 AM

jonypure

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thanks pax,
I have never changed a unit before which im guessing is done in the game files under oob's?
thanks for the replys

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- 12/2/2001 12:04:00 PM

john g

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From: college station, tx usa
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quote:

Originally posted by jonypure:
Im wondering why the FJ 28mm AT gun can't be loaded into the transport plans or gliders? Is there historical or technical reasons? Where is the best place to find a player for
PBEM or internet play? Is there somewhere that explains how to use the MilitaryGamer opponent finder? Thanks

If you can't get it to load on gliders then you must be doing something wrong. It loads fine here, it is a 104 weight unit, which means it has 4 men and is a light gun.
A DFS230 has a carry capacity of 110, which means it can carry a light gun and 10 men. I have no problem loading a gun and 6 man A0 on a glider. I have never seen anything about it being dropped by parachute into action. The only gun I know of that regularly got dropped was the US 75mm pack how, and it was broken into 6 parcels to do so. The reassembly time for this operation would take up most of the battle.
thanks, John.

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- 12/2/2001 6:32:00 PM

Belisarius

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From: Gothenburg, Sweden
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quote:

Originally posted by jonypure:
Im wondering why the FJ 28mm AT gun can't be loaded into the transport plans or gliders? Is there historical or technical reasons? Where is the best place to find a player for
PBEM or internet play? Is there somewhere that explains how to use the MilitaryGamer opponent finder? Thanks

Both historical and technical, I'd say. German gliders were pretty much useless for transporting anything but troops (and you still couldn't fit a single platoon into one aircraft). I'd imagine that you should be able to fit a FJ 28mm AT into a JU 52...at least into a Condor, which was about the only plane good enough for loading support weapons (and vehicles). Funny that the army that introduced airborne assaults couldn't learn from their own lessons and improve the materiel as the war progressed. But I guess that's symptomatic for the Wehrmacht when there were no influential supporters at hand. (did I hear 'long range bombers'??)

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- 12/2/2001 7:56:00 PM

Frank W.

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quote:

Where is the best place to find a player for
PBEM or internet play? Is there somewhere that explains how to use the MilitaryGamer opponent finder? [/QB]

hey... if u want a PBEM game,pls. mail me at: eurec@web.de (NO SPAM!!!!) greetings frank

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- 12/3/2001 5:54:00 AM

robot

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When i mount an airborne drop as the germans, this is my mode of operations. I load all men and machine guns and any at rifles on cargo to be dropped. Then in gliders i load couple 37 ATs. also maybe couple 50mm morters. Bring them in with a squad of engineers maybe Works fine for me no problem loading them at all. also scouts are loaded on transports to be dropped. First wave is scouts 2 squads paras. Next wave is MG AT rifles next 2 squads paras. Third wave is gliders.

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- 12/3/2001 7:56:00 PM

panda124c

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quote:

Originally posted by Belisarius:
Both historical and technical, I'd say. German gliders were pretty much useless for transporting anything but troops (and you still couldn't fit a single platoon into one aircraft). I'd imagine that you should be able to fit a FJ 28mm AT into a JU 52...at least into a Condor, which was about the only plane good enough for loading support weapons (and vehicles). Funny that the army that introduced airborne assaults couldn't learn from their own lessons and improve the materiel as the war progressed. But I guess that's symptomatic for the Wehrmacht when there were no influential supporters at hand. (did I hear 'long range bombers'??)

Historicaly the Germans used their paratroopes to capture important objectives (as did every other country) however one of the most important objectives on the German list was airfields, this was important to them so that they could bring in heavy equipment, such as AT guns, artillary, etc. In Crete the follow up troops were a Mountain Division carried in Ju-52's. In Norway the samething only paratroops (IIRC) were in the Ju-52's.
The German DFS230 gliders were used to deliver a squad of infantry/engineers, without scattering them all over the place to a specific point for an attack. In order to increase the fire power of the squad MG34's were mounted on the sides of the gliders (to be fired as landing) then removed to be used by the squad. Later larger gliders were build to deliver heavier loads. The 28mm ATG would not be delivered by glider or parachute, but would be airlanded by Ju-52. So the Ju-52 should have the capability to carry it.
Game limitation, unless you use Ju-52's incorrectly (don't assign them a drop turn) you can not simulate them landing and they move very slowly (IIRC 4 hexes/turn).
Another note, the German paratroops drop form very low altitude to decrease scatter (chute open, your're on the ground). I believe the US used the same low altitude drops in Burma because of the small drop zones.

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- 12/3/2001 9:01:00 PM

AmmoSgt

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If you set the FJ28 weights to Zero , wouldn't it just kinda float in the air ?

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- 12/4/2001 12:25:00 AM

panda124c

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quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
If you set the FJ28 weights to Zero , wouldn't it just kinda float in the air ?

If they float in air can you tow them like gliders?

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- 12/4/2001 2:24:00 AM

pax27

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oh bother... [ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: pax27 ]

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- 12/6/2001 10:33:00 AM

jonypure

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You just have to love the humor in the forum. Thanks for all the replies, next beer is on me.

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- 12/8/2001 4:32:00 AM

Belisarius

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Btw, I stumbled upon the lil' sucker today at work!
28mm m41 AT gun I'd say you'd fit it into a plane. 500 lbs, 5 man crew - they can carry it if they want to.

actually, I was looking for info about the Guerlich principle and this was the ONLY hit Google got.

So anyone who knows, please feel free to fill in. I'd like to know more about this.

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- 12/8/2001 6:35:00 AM

pax27

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Who�s the genius that named this AT-gun FJ? It�s at this point on this forum as portable as a quad 280mm AA tower so WHY...by god WHY!!!

like i wrote: bother...

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- 12/8/2001 7:38:00 AM

john g

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quote:

Originally posted by Belisarius:
Btw, I stumbled upon the lil' sucker today at work!
28mm m41 AT gun I'd say you'd fit it into a plane. 500 lbs, 5 man crew - they can carry it if they want to. actually, I was looking for info about the Guerlich principle and this was the ONLY hit Google got. So anyone who knows, please feel free to fill in. I'd like to know more about this.

As I recall, it involves having the propellant act upon a large area at the moment of firing, and as the barrel squeezes down the pressure acts upon a smaller and smaller area, increasing the velocity to extreme levels by having the same force act on a smaller area. The gun doesn't have to be massively built because the pressure in the breach is less per sq cm of the projectile base because the base is larger then. A related design is the lowpressure high pressure system where the propellant is fired in a seperate chamber and the pressure is leaked into the barrel through vents to then act on the projectile. Exotic gun technology that requires special metals and wears out barrels rapidly. But then the Germans were always fond of exotic guns, for example the Paris gun of WWI.
thanks, John.

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- 12/9/2001 6:04:00 AM

Belisarius

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quote:

Originally posted by john g:
As I recall, it involves having the propellant act upon a large area at the moment of firing, and as the barrel squeezes down the pressure acts upon a smaller and smaller area, increasing the velocity to extreme levels by having the same force act on a smaller area. The gun doesn't have to be massively built because the pressure in the breach is less per sq cm of the projectile base because the base is larger then. A related design is the lowpressure high pressure system where the propellant is fired in a seperate chamber and the pressure is leaked into the barrel through vents to then act on the projectile. Exotic gun technology that requires special metals and wears out barrels rapidly. But then the Germans were always fond of exotic guns, for example the Paris gun of WWI.
thanks, John.

Thanks for the explanation, john!

I thought it had to do with velocity increase due to the pressure. One follow-up q: The shells. Were they standard 28mm shells, or special ones? I guess a 28mm shell could squeeze through the barrel with that kind of pressure pushing at it. But that would put an enourmous stress to the barrel?

[ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: Belisarius ]

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- 12/9/2001 11:43:00 AM

john g

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quote:

Originally posted by Belisarius:
Thanks for the explanation, john! I thought it had to do with velocity increase due to the pressure. One follow-up q: The shells. Were they standard 28mm shells, or special ones? I guess a 28mm shell could squeeze through the barrel with that kind of pressure pushing at it. But that would put an enourmous stress to the barrel? [ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: Belisarius ]

The shells used a tungsten (wulfram for Germanic scientists) core surrounded with other material that would squeeze down. The core was something less than 20 mm aross with the other material making up the other 8mm of the diameter since the tungsten would not squeeze down. Sorry if I sound a little vague about this, it has been 20 years or so since I read about the gun. It ranks up there with the British steam guns on freighters that fired hand grenades upwards against attacking planes, or the Panjandrum, which I will ask to be included if the Goliath ever gets put in.
thanks, John.

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- 12/9/2001 5:37:00 PM

Belisarius

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quote:

Originally posted by john g:
The shells used a tungsten (wulfram for Germanic scientists) core surrounded with other material that would squeeze down. The core was something less than 20 mm aross with the other material making up the other 8mm of the diameter since the tungsten would not squeeze down. Sorry if I sound a little vague about this, it has been 20 years or so since I read about the gun. It ranks up there with the British steam guns on freighters that fired hand grenades upwards against attacking planes, or the Panjandrum, which I will ask to be included if the Goliath ever gets put in.
thanks, John.

My thanx again, John.

Yet another question out of the blue: I think I somewhere have read that the Panther 75mm KwK also had a tapered bore? Could this have been common practice, seeing how scarce the supply of tungsten was? Note: I think I've pointed it out before, but another funny language thing: Tungsten = Swedish for "heavy rock", hence the name, and this was adopted by the English. Now we call it Wolfram though, as do the Germans.

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- 12/10/2001 7:46:00 PM

panda124c

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quote:

Originally posted by Belisarius:

My thanx again, John. Yet another question out of the blue: I think I somewhere have read that the Panther 75mm KwK also had a tapered bore? Could this have been common practice, seeing how scarce the supply of tungsten was? Note: I think I've pointed it out before, but another funny language thing: Tungsten = Swedish for "heavy rock", hence the name, and this was adopted by the English. Now we call it Wolfram though, as do the Germans.

The Panther did not have a taper bore gun by this time tungsten was in very short supply. There were three taper bore guns, 28/20 being the most common, there was a (IIRC) 50mm and a 75mm, I'll have to look it up to be sure.

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- 12/11/2001 12:48:00 AM

Belisarius

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quote:

Originally posted by pbear:
The Panther did not have a taper bore gun by this time tungsten was in very short supply. There were three taper bore guns, 28/20 being the most common, there was a (IIRC) 50mm and a 75mm, I'll have to look it up to be sure.

OK, so there might have been a 75mm tapered bore gun at least, if not in the Panther.. good to know my memory wasn't completely out of line.

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- 12/13/2001 8:19:00 PM

panda124c

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quote:

Originally posted by Belisarius:
Btw, I stumbled upon the lil' sucker today at work!
28mm m41 AT gun I'd say you'd fit it into a plane. 500 lbs, 5 man crew - they can carry it if they want to. actually, I was looking for info about the Guerlich principle and this was the ONLY hit Google got. So anyone who knows, please feel free to fill in. I'd like to know more about this.

I found this little tid bit at the following site.
http://www.gunsmagazine.com/Pages/0101ftr.html
Belts & Wildcats
In the 1930s Elmer Keith and a couple of fellow rifle enthusiasts, Charlie O’Neil and Don Hopkins, were experimenting with .33-caliber wildcats. They settled on two versions: the .333 OKH, based on the .30-’06 case, and the .334 OKH on the belted Holland & Holland case. Except that they used 0.333" instead of 0.338" bullets, the cartridges were similar to the .338-’06 and the .340 Weatherby.
As loaded by Keith the .333 OKH gave a 250 gr. bullet a muzzle velocity of 2,600 fps, the .334 OKH a velocity of 2,850. (We list these for comparative purposes; Keith preferred to use 275 and 300 gr. bullets at somewhat lower velocities.)
At about the same time a German gunsmith named Gerlich was experimenting with various large-capacity cases using improved German powders. One of his cartridges, the .335 Halger (for Halbe & Gerlich), based on the H&H case, claimed performance of 3,125 fps from a 240 gr. bullet. If this velocity was actually reached, it must have been at very high pressures or else in a very long barrel. Halger rifles and cartridges never got much distribution in America but they did get a lot of publicity in the shooting press.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My analysis: From what I understand of interior ballistics (which is very little) the Grerlich principle involves the expansion of gas in a barrel. First the desire is to have all the propellant burn before the round leaves the barrel this allows for no wasted propellant and insures a source of pressure for the entire travel time of the round down the barrel. As the propellant burns the gas expands forcing the round down the barrel which increased the volume that the gas expands into which decreases the pressure. By using a taper bore the volume of the barrel does not increase as rapidly as with a straight bore thereby decreasing the pressure drop in the tapered barrel as opposed to a straight barrel. This lower decrease in pressure leads to increased velocity of the round. AmmoSgt probably know more about this than I do but that’s my analysis.
From Almark Publications, Weapons Series, German Anti-tank Guns 1939-1945 T. J. Gander The Germans had three taper bore guns:
2.8cm schwere Panzerbuchse 41 28mm at the breech to 20mm at the muzzle with a velocity of 4,550 ft/sec. Most widely encountered, first used in 1941 still in limited service in 1945. (barrel length 5’ 7.5” )
4.2cm le Pak 41 42mm at the breech to 28mm at the muzzle with a velocity of 4,100ft /sec (looks very similar to the 3.7cm Pak 35/36). First encountered in North Africa in 1942, production ceased in 1942, number build unknown. (barrel length 7’ 4.5” )
7.5cm Pak 41 L/55 75mm at the breech to 55mm at the muzzle with a velocity of 3,926 ft/sec production ceased in 1942 with 150 built. Used until ammo ran out then scraped or converted to standard 7.5cm Pak 40 barrels. (barrel length 13’ 7.25” )
By comparison: the 8.8cm Pak 43 L71 muzzle velocity was 3,280 ft/sec. (barrel length 21’ 7.25” ) [ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ]

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